Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

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Rabbitball
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:13 pm

I'm going to start another thread here to unpack all the details that bear on this situation, as well as offering a house rule to resolve what I think is the main complaint, as there are several things that need to be explained first.
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

winstoninabox
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby winstoninabox » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:34 pm

Rabbitball wrote:I'm going to start another thread here to unpack all the details that bear on this situation, as well as offering a house rule to resolve what I think is the main complaint, as there are several things that need to be explained first.


I hope no one sees my posts as complaining. I'm trying to write as briefly and as succinctly as possible my observations about the system. The new system is what it is. It's the system that Torg is gonna be using from now on. It wouldn't have been my choice for how to solve the problems that the designers wanted to solve (keeping the Bonus chart was, IMHO, not a good choice and an avoidable one), but there's no point in complaining about that. I'm posting in the interest in talking about the system, and not with the intention of arguing against it.

That said, I do think that there is value in discussing what the system in a warts and all way in relation to what it is trying to do vs. how it is going about doing it. Every system has its pluses and minuses, and this system will be no different in that respect. Knowing what they are before going into using the system is good not only for the designers but the players.

Also, I know it has been playtested extensively. But so was the original system, and it shipped with the GJN problem, which was a big problem that it should never have had. That's not to say that this system has a problem of that magnitude, but rather to say that just because something was tested extensively, it doesn't mean it won't still have problems which could have been avoided if it were examined with fresh eyes at an earlier stage.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:08 am

winstoninabox wrote:
It's true that you don't need to calculate the exact number to know which Success band you fall into for *that* roll, but you will want to know the exact number so that when you make your next attack you can better target the band you want to fall into. Because the GM is gonna tell you to use 0d6, 1d6, or 2d6 for the Damage, you're gonna know how well you hit your opponent. If a DN roll of 14 got me 1d6, then I know that to get 2d6 I'm gonna need at least 19 to guarantee it, and a DN roll of 9 is gonna be nothing special. The band of 5 is so big that you'll want to calculate the exact number so you know how well you're going. With multiple attackers there will be a lot of feedback in the form of Success Levels coming to the players, so very quickly they're gonna know what DNs to go for to hit the two Success Levels that give bonus dice to damage.

So while I agree what you said would be true on an individual basis, I still think players are gonna calculate the number, even if they do it after the fact, because it's a valuable source of information. And once they calculate it once, then they're gonna calculate it again so that they can hit the Success Level they want.


The default assumption is that the players will know the exact DN needed. There may be an occasional exception (say, if you're looking for something hidden) but, especially during combat, the defenses are known.
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winstoninabox
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby winstoninabox » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:50 pm

Here's an idea. Since you're going to be producing a custom d6 for the game, then make a custom d20 which has the Bonus Chart numbers on it rather than the regular 1 to 20 faces. That way you can eliminate using the Bonus Chart!

Edit for typo.

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dev/null
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby dev/null » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:05 pm

TorgHacker wrote:[One of my partners in crime reminded me that there is in fact, a better result than Outstanding.

It's called a Glory. :lol:

What that gets you we'll be discussing later.


Skipping over what it gets us, which will be discussed later, is it still achieved in the same way, with the same restrictions? If the answer is no, I suspect we have to wait, if yes, I imagine that part can be shared.

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dev/null
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby dev/null » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:16 pm

Here's hoping this is received well.

I see this as a new fix to the old problem of GJN, which has been mentioned. It also seems to slightly tie in damage/effect dice to a small degree, though it's possible that they won't be used, as on a standard success.

What I see as being a large positive of this is the idea of divorcing the how well you hit something, from how hard you hit it. That rather than potentially hitting a thing and doing zero damage from the outset because I can hit on a d20 roll of 1, but then lose all the damage my weapon does. This method seems to be you will do a minimum of your weapon's damage. You may do more, if you've managed to get a really good hit, such as finding the chink in their armor, or the broken rib they were hiding.

Perhaps it simply does require playing with to see the benefits of it (or maybe even the fun of it), but to me divorcing the "does it work" from the "how well it works" seems like a decent mechanic. And as far as the bonus d6s exploding, Torg is all about exploding, be it dice, buildings, people, or any other thing. It may be looking at a mechanic as a mechanic, rather than how it ties into the situations, or how it applies thematically is making it harder to see why it's useful.

All that being said, my expectations may be dashed horrifically upon trying it out, but we will have to see when that time comes. For now, I think it makes it more interesting, and sounds better.

If it takes me a roll/bonus of 40+ to hit something monstrous, do I automatically get to do tons of damage? My weapons are still my weapons. FFT.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:13 pm

dev/null wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:[One of my partners in crime reminded me that there is in fact, a better result than Outstanding.

It's called a Glory. :lol:

What that gets you we'll be discussing later.


Skipping over what it gets us, which will be discussed later, is it still achieved in the same way, with the same restrictions? If the answer is no, I suspect we have to wait, if yes, I imagine that part can be shared.


Roll of 60+. Anytime, any situation.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:25 pm

dev/null wrote:Here's hoping this is received well.

I see this as a new fix to the old problem of GJN, which has been mentioned. It also seems to slightly tie in damage/effect dice to a small degree, though it's possible that they won't be used, as on a standard success.

What I see as being a large positive of this is the idea of divorcing the how well you hit something, from how hard you hit it. That rather than potentially hitting a thing and doing zero damage from the outset because I can hit on a d20 roll of 1, but then lose all the damage my weapon does. This method seems to be you will do a minimum of your weapon's damage. You may do more, if you've managed to get a really good hit, such as finding the chink in their armor, or the broken rib they were hiding.



Right.

At one point we did investigate using the "just use result points to determine the bonus damage". This was reaaaaaaaly early on though, so we hadn't gone down to the 3 success levels, or the bonus dice.

The big problem with that is it made Dexterity even more important, so much so that your Toughness was largely irrelevant. It was always better to add +1 to Dexterity rather than +1 to Toughness.


Perhaps it simply does require playing with to see the benefits of it (or maybe even the fun of it), but to me divorcing the "does it work" from the "how well it works" seems like a decent mechanic. And as far as the bonus d6s exploding, Torg is all about exploding, be it dice, buildings, people, or any other thing. It may be looking at a mechanic as a mechanic, rather than how it ties into the situations, or how it applies thematically is making it harder to see why it's useful.

All that being said, my expectations may be dashed horrifically upon trying it out, but we will have to see when that time comes. For now, I think it makes it more interesting, and sounds better.

If it takes me a roll/bonus of 40+ to hit something monstrous, do I automatically get to do tons of damage? My weapons are still my weapons. FFT.


Short answer is no, not 'automatically'. Longer answer will have to wait until we preview combat.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

winstoninabox
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby winstoninabox » Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:51 pm

At one point we did investigate using the "just use result points to determine the bonus damage". This was reaaaaaaaly early on though, so we hadn't gone down to the 3 success levels, or the bonus dice.

The big problem with that is it made Dexterity even more important, so much so that your Toughness was largely irrelevant. It was always better to add +1 to Dexterity rather than +1 to Toughness.


The Dexterity vs Toughness is always going to be a problem if the relationship of taking the RPs is kept one to one. The Success Levels and Bonus Dice seems a reasonable solution to the problem. I guess YMMV on whether it's necessary to add new dice and do another roll and its calculations when its recreating the same numbers that halving the RPs would create. It short, it's a roll that has already been done.

......New....1/2
RPs..Dam+..RPs
0.....0........0
1.....0........1
2.....0........1
3.....0........2
4.....0........2
5.....4........3
6.....4........3
7.....4........4
8.....4........4
9.....4........5
10....8.......5
11....8.......6
12....8.......6
13....8.......7
14....8.......7
15....8.......8
16....8.......8
17....8.......9
etc.

Halving the RPs is a simple calculation, it keeps the one roll policy of oTorg, it encourages higher rolling of the d20 for the damage bonus (the new method basically tops out at 10 RPs), has a smoother graduation in the results, and if you wanted it to would allow the Success Level chart to go back to the finer graduation of Success Levels it used to have so that it'd be more useful for the non-combat interactions and how much flavor text to use when describing what happens.

The other thing to consider in the Dexterity vs Toughness problem is way to beef up Toughness and lower the power of Dexterity. Removing Dodge as a Dexterity Skill would be one way - characters can still run around, but the to-hit is their Dex. If they want to be harder to hit then they need to get behind cover, carry a shield, sprint for some kind of base + (eg. dodging is +2 and an action), or have a special ability (Martial Art: Gun Kata, Super Speed) that allows them to actually dodge those kind of attacks.

Edit for typo, and I've no idea how to make that table look better. Imagine spaces between the numbers.

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blackwind1kaze
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Re: Preview #1 - Updating a Classic

Postby blackwind1kaze » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:45 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Roll of 60+. Anytime, any situation.


So we have the following rolls:
DN standard
DN +5 (spacing on this name)
DN +10 outstanding
and DN +60 glory.

Did you guys try a playtest of dn, +10, +20, and +60? With the glory number added, the two bonus dice options seem really crammed together. If the goal is that players should eventually math it out, shouldn't there be more room to give the improvement?

This is just my view point with current info.
I don't always GM, but when i do, I go out in style :ugeek:


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