Preview #10 - Combat Basics

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TorgHacker
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Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:59 am

Here you can ask questions or discuss the preview on combat basics in Torg Eternity:

http://www.ulisses-us.com/torg-eternity ... at-basics/
Deanna Gilbert
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kaffo
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby kaffo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:12 am

I'm loving the fact you are throwing initiative out the window when it comes to each side, I always liked that about games like Dungeon World.
For the first time though since you've started posting these previews, I've seen something I'm sad to see still in the game. That's the wall of skills.
Ranged attacks (fire combat, missile weapons, heavy weapons, energy weapons)

That's a whole load of skills for one really similar thing, and it just feels to me like needless point sink. Yes I can understand each does their own thing, but I was really hoping for a system more like the new unified magic system. When I saw the list it feel made my heart sink a little, it just seems like a really out of date way of doing combat...

Obviously I haven't played it, so maybe it plays better. But certainly in 2017, I'm not missing checking my character sheet for 3 different numbers and cross referencing them with the GM.

Not really a massive deal I suppose, I'm still super excited :D

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blackwind1kaze
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby blackwind1kaze » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:22 am

So say we have "you spot a weakness" up. If a player does both a maneuver and a taunt as a multi-action, do they get 2 cards from succeeding both or just one?

Also onto multi-actions, is there an actual limit to the number of actions in it or is it a 'just keep going till you fail once' sort of thing?
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:24 am

I'm quite happy to see the interaction results simplified. No need for those long tables that vary from skill to skill.

And I won't miss test of wills. I viewed it the same as intimidation really.

I'm glad to see active dodge still in play. I assume that one could multiaction an attack and a defense to ensure a minimum of -1 to defense?

I feel like the Death and Defeat test should be based on the higher of Strength and Spirit. II can see a minotaur being tough to kill or the mystical martial artist with his steely stare. By taking the lower, it feels like these kinds of characters will be rarer. But on the other hand, I can see how this could encourage min-maxing. Since Spirit determines how much shock you take, I doubt that PCs will purposefully gimp that.

Spending a Possibility to remove only one shock seems pretty crappy. Would it be possible to have a minimum? Or maybe roll 2dE and choose the higher?

At least this won't have the same issue as oTorg where you do a bunch of actions but realize that you can do three more without incurring more penalties. And if I recall, each action would require a separate roll? Or am I making things up again?
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:46 am

blackwind1kaze wrote:So say we have "you spot a weakness" up. If a player does both a maneuver and a taunt as a multi-action, do they get 2 cards from succeeding both or just one?



Just one.


Also onto multi-actions, is there an actual limit to the number of actions in it or is it a 'just keep going till you fail once' sort of thing?


You say at the start how many you're going to do. Then each of those has a -2 penalty per action attempted. So a taunt, a trick, and an attack would all be done at -6.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:52 am

Kuildeous wrote:
I'm glad to see active dodge still in play. I assume that one could multiaction an attack and a defense to ensure a minimum of -1 to defense?



No. You have to sacrifice your action to do an Active Defense.


I feel like the Death and Defeat test should be based on the higher of Strength and Spirit. II can see a minotaur being tough to kill or the mystical martial artist with his steely stare. By taking the lower, it feels like these kinds of characters will be rarer. But on the other hand, I can see how this could encourage min-maxing. Since Spirit determines how much shock you take, I doubt that PCs will purposefully gimp that.



There are Perks to allow you to use Spirit instead of Strength (and vice versa).


Spending a Possibility to remove only one shock seems pretty crappy. Would it be possible to have a minimum? Or maybe roll 2dE and choose the higher?



It won't be in the core book, but this is certainly something that would be a good Perk.


At least this won't have the same issue as oTorg where you do a bunch of actions but realize that you can do three more without incurring more penalties. And if I recall, each action would require a separate roll? Or am I making things up again?


Nope, one roll. There was a definite effort to decrease the time to resolve multi-actions.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby hawaiianbrian » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:59 am

I don't mind there being several combat skills, since A) they are pretty different (heavy weapons are things like cannons or mounted guns, which are different enough to merit special training -- the only thing I could see folding in are energy weapons, but I'm not that worried about it), and B) it gives fighter-types something to spread their skill points across. Spellcasters, pulp heroes, scholars, and just about everyone else have to decide where to place their points across a wide range of skills/perks.

Anyway:
blackwind1kaze wrote:Also onto multi-actions, is there an actual limit to the number of actions in it or is it a 'just keep going till you fail once' sort of thing?


Funny, because this is how we (mistakenly) ran things back with original Torg. Your first action was normal, and if you wanted to take a second action it was at -2, a third was at -4, and so on (I never placed a limit). I was always a bit frustrated that everyone took more than one action a turn, like, always. It wasn't until much later that I started realizing why my misinterpretation of the rule made it almost mandatory to cram tons of actions in your turn, because the risk to reward ratio was skewed. :D

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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby hawaiianbrian » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:04 am

Kuildeous wrote:Spending a Possibility to remove only one shock seems pretty crappy. Would it be possible to have a minimum? Or maybe roll 2dE and choose the higher?


Agreed, though I'll just tell my players not all possibilities lead to equal results. But if it's not playing out well at the table, it's an easy one to houserule. Make it dE+1, or even a flat 3 shock.

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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:12 am

I like that tables are getting simplified (damage results) or removed entirely (like the interaction results table). My old Torg GM screen actually has more tables taped on to it; it's sort of comical. I also like that at least some of the tables are going to be easy to memorize through gameplay, like how the damage results table has values in regular increments. Easy to remember that for every 5 points over, it's 2 shock + 1 wound.

Shock limit is based on Spirit; I like that, makes Spirit more valuable. Wound limit is mentioned; based on Toughness and can be higher than four? I really like what you guys are doing with attributes from what I've seen.

I'm surprised at comments above about there being so many combat skills...doesn't seem like enough to me, and I don't think it's more than we had in oTorg.

One problem in oTorg was that it seemed pretty easy to get a large number of skill adds in a combat skill and get to the point where you never miss and always do large damage. Specialization and Trademark specialization made it even easier. Some people house ruled that you had to pick a specialization when you chose Fire Combat, treating it like a skill limitation (Narrower skills option). Any chance the "narrower skills" option is the default now? I remember experienced characters just had it too easy sometimes and didn't have to specialize much do to high fire combat or energy weapons skills. Wasn't a problem for a while, but then they stacked those adds. If they were good with one type of weapon only it wouldn't be as game-breaking since there are some adventuring advantages to pistols as they are concealable, and sometimes their gear gets lost, etc. If you don't playtest with experienced characters, it's something that's easily missed, and there are even fewer skills and attributes now than before.

What's the DN on a Death and Defeat test?
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby RealityStorm » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:22 am

Given that initiative is random each round based on the GM's card-flip, it seems like it only ever makes sense to do an Active Defense if your side has initiative that round. The reason is that if you act first, you can guarantee that the defense actually (potentially) pays off. If you act second, then there's a chance that you could act first in the next round and have wasted your Active Defense (because it expires on your next turn).

To avoid that sort of metagaming, maybe Active Defense should be changed to read that it lasts until the end of the enemy's next turn?


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