Preview #10 - Combat Basics

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Kuildeous
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:29 am

RealityStorm wrote: To avoid that sort of metagaming, maybe Active Defense should be changed to read that it lasts until the end of the enemy's next turn?


Or just during the current card flip? That's how I did it in oTorg. It never actually occurred to me to let the defense roll carry over to the next card. It all got wiped when the card got flipped.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:36 am

Gargoyle wrote:I like that tables are getting simplified (damage results) or removed entirely (like the interaction results table). My old Torg GM screen actually has more tables taped on to it; it's sort of comical. I also like that at least some of the tables are going to be easy to memorize through gameplay, like how the damage results table has values in regular increments. Easy to remember that for every 5 points over, it's 2 shock + 1 wound.



Yup that was one of the goals from the start: fewer tables.


Shock limit is based on Spirit; I like that, makes Spirit more valuable. Wound limit is mentioned; based on Toughness and can be higher than four? I really like what you guys are doing with attributes from what I've seen.



No, Wound limit is based on Ord vs. reality-rated, normal sized vs. large sized, standard vs. elite. Actually large creatures get a higher Shock limit as well.

But you can increase your Wound limit with Perks.


I'm surprised at comments above about there being so many combat skills...doesn't seem like enough to me, and I don't think it's more than we had in oTorg.



It's certainly not. :-)


One problem in oTorg was that it seemed pretty easy to get a large number of skill adds in a combat skill and get to the point where you never miss and always do large damage. Specialization and Trademark specialization made it even easier. Some people house ruled that you had to pick a specialization when you chose Fire Combat, treating it like a skill limitation (Narrower skills option). Any chance the "narrower skills" option is the default now? I remember experienced characters just had it too easy sometimes and didn't have to specialize much do to high fire combat or energy weapons skills. Wasn't a problem for a while, but then they stacked those adds. If they were good with one type of weapon only it wouldn't be as game-breaking since there are some adventuring advantages to pistols as they are concealable, and sometimes their gear gets lost, etc. If you don't playtest with experienced characters, it's something that's easily missed, and there are even fewer skills and attributes now than before.



There's no specialization in general anymore, but there is a Trademark Weapon Perk. Also, I'm not sure if I'd mentioned this previously, but there's a limit to the number of adds you can take in a skill (five). You can take a Perk that allows you to boost that limit to 8. Pulp heroes with super-skill also increase the limits.


What's the DN on a Death and Defeat test?


Unless specified, the DN of a test is 10.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:40 am

RealityStorm wrote:Given that initiative is random each round based on the GM's card-flip, it seems like it only ever makes sense to do an Active Defense if your side has initiative that round. The reason is that if you act first, you can guarantee that the defense actually (potentially) pays off. If you act second, then there's a chance that you could act first in the next round and have wasted your Active Defense (because it expires on your next turn).

To avoid that sort of metagaming, maybe Active Defense should be changed to read that it lasts until the end of the enemy's next turn?


One thing to remember is that the previews often aren't going into some of the details that are in the book.

In this case, you can declare an Active Defense when attacked. You just sacrifice your turn that round. If your side is going first, you can Wait to see if you get attacked (though if Defend is an Approved Action it's probably just as well to say you're doing an Active Defense since you get the Destiny card even if you're not attacked).

If you Wait and don't get attacked, then you can attack at the end of their turn at a -2 penalty.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:54 am

TorgHacker wrote:No, Wound limit is based on Ord vs. reality-rated, normal sized vs. large sized, standard vs. elite. Actually large creatures get a higher Shock limit as well.

But you can increase your Wound limit with Perks.


Sounds good.


There's no specialization in general anymore, but there is a Trademark Weapon Perk. Also, I'm not sure if I'd mentioned this previously, but there's a limit to the number of adds you can take in a skill (five). You can take a Perk that allows you to boost that limit to 8. Pulp heroes with super-skill also increase the limits.



The limits sounds great, that solves the issue, and I like that there are options with perks and for pulp-heroes. IIRC things didn't get really powerful until 8 adds or so, and not really broken until 10 so this is probably about right, and allows for those rare heroes with the uber-skills but not pressuring everyone into stacking certain skills to ridiculous levels. The moderate mashing down of damage values for weapons will help too.

I'm beginning to see what you mean by saying that perks solved a lot of problems, looking forward to seeing the full list.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:12 pm

TorgHacker wrote:

What's the DN on a Death and Defeat test?


Unless specified, the DN of a test is 10.


Regarding the permanent injury, even with the low DN that seems pretty harsh. I don't know what the values of the new bonus chart are, but with the old one there is only roughly a 36% chance of getting a Good or better result. (30% chance, plus a 7% chance that the number <15 that you rolled was a 10, giving you another roll, and assuming that roll is =>5 ).

Edit: My math was incomplete, it's actually a much lower chance to get a Good success. I was assuming an 8 in either Strength or Spirit. The chance is actually 7.75% as you need a bonus of +7 to get 15, which is five higher than the DN of 10. It is a 34% chance to just to get a 10 to beat the DN. Ditched my math, and looked up the odds: Source for the odds: http://www.sdc.org/~ksjim/bonus.html and http://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/troll.msp

With possibilities and cards, your chance of injury goes way down of course, and as I recall attributes are cheaper to buy now, so maybe it's fine most of the time, but I know players will be very concerned about permanent stat decreases. I predict some negative reactions, akin to that you saw from level draining undead in earlier D&D editions.

Edit: If you spend a possibility or hero card, your odds skyrocket to over 57%, even without rerolling 10's and 20's. So yes, you almost certainly want to reserve some possibilities and/or cards for these rolls, as there is a significant chance of permanent injury even when you spend them, and very likely chance if you don't. I think it's a bit too punishing, especially if you have to spend something like 8 (average attribute score) x 2 = 16 xp, but of course, that's me doing some assumptions on how many xp we get, and what the cost is.

Is the new Bonus chart published somewhere, or is it the same? I think something was mentioned about it, but I can't find that nugget of info.
Last edited by Gargoyle on Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:16 pm

I'll give you a story from my playtesting...and arguably the most ... impactful playtest session that we had.

This was an early playtest, so we didn't have the 3 Success Levels or bonus damage.

My group had a couple of Torg vets, and three newbies. One of them tends to min/max (which didn't bother me for this). He took a Nile sharpshooter...with 13 Dexterity, +3 adds for fire combat, Super-Attribute (Dex), Super-Skill (fire combat) so he ended up with Dexterity 14, maneuver 16, fire combat 19.

And then proceeded to target multiple characters with Vital Blows while doing a maneuver as a multi-action.

And then the rest of the group decided to do that too (to a lesser degree).

That session Ground. To. A. Halt. :-)

Basically it was an almost perfect example of the worst case scenario for making Torg combat very, very, very slow. :-)

Unfortunately that was the last time we got to play with that player, because he died of a heart attack a couple weeks later. :cry:
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby blackwind1kaze » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:19 pm

Gargoyle wrote:... I predict some negative reactions, akin to that you saw from level draining undead in earlier D&D editions...


I think it'll depend on how much experience it would cost to replace the stats. Assuming it's not the next value times 4 like otorg, it shouldn't be that bad.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:22 pm

Gargoyle wrote:
Regarding the permanent injury, even with the low DN that seems pretty harsh. I don't know what the values of the new bonus chart are, but with the old one there is only roughly a 36% chance of getting a Good or better result. (30% chance, plus a 7% chance that the number <15 that you rolled was a 10, giving you another roll, and assuming that roll is =>5 ).

With possibilities and cards, your chance of injury goes way down of course, and as I recall attributes are cheaper to buy now, so maybe it's fine most of the time, but I know players will be very concerned about permanent stat decreases. I predict some negative reactions, akin to that you saw from level draining undead in earlier D&D editions.

Is the new Bonus chart published somewhere, or is it the same? I think something was mentioned about it, but I can't find that nugget of info.


The bonus chart is the same (I think. If there is a difference it's only at the 1 or 2 roll). The Possibilities and cards are what allows us to do this reasonably. Basically, if you _are_ going to go down, just accept it and keep that Possibility for the Death & Defeat test. With the minimum 10 on the Possibility that makes it very likely you at least get a Good result.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:23 pm

blackwind1kaze wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:... I predict some negative reactions, akin to that you saw from level draining undead in earlier D&D editions...


I think it'll depend on how much experience it would cost to replace the stats. Assuming it's not the next value times 4 like otorg, it shouldn't be that bad.


It's not. It is cheaper than Original Torg was.
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Re: Preview #10 - Combat Basics

Postby blackwind1kaze » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:37 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
blackwind1kaze wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:... I predict some negative reactions, akin to that you saw from level draining undead in earlier D&D editions...


I think it'll depend on how much experience it would cost to replace the stats. Assuming it's not the next value times 4 like otorg, it shouldn't be that bad.


It's not. It is cheaper than Original Torg was.

Would it be possible to know how much cheaper? :D
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