Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

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blackwind1kaze
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby blackwind1kaze » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:23 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Like I said, you can do whatever you want to. But the gear is balanced with these rules in mind, and several of these rules are there specifically to balance how awesome Full Auto is. There was a ton of discussion on this during design, so I want to be very clear what impacts ignoring the rule will have, namely significantly increasing the efficiency of Full Auto weapons compared to the other attack methods in the game.

Here's a thought, feel free to counter thing Dean, but What if you use full auto you need to reload after you use it, and rapid fire you can use it twice before a reload?

Just a quick thought that popped into mind.
I don't always GM, but when i do, I go out in style :ugeek:

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:47 pm

Like I said, I have no qualms over people house ruling, but these are the rules that will be in the book. I don't really want to go back and forth on alternative systems because, well...I already did that a lot during design. :-)
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

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hawaiianbrian
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby hawaiianbrian » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:29 pm

Kuildeous wrote:I'm the opposite. I wouldn't consider it a vital blow. A humiliating blow, sure, but if you're trying to kill someone dead, then shooting off dangly bits is counterproductive when you could be focusing on organs and major arteries.

I'm no gunshot expert, but I would need some heavy persuasion to convince me that a hole ripped into one's upper chest is less painful than having your nuts blown off. Certainly you can't tell me it's less lethal.


No, it's certainly less lethal, but when it comes to removing an opponent from combat, it isn't necessary to kill them. Literally shooting them in the testes would pretty much remove the fight from anyone -- thus, effectively taking them out of combat. In the "real world," that would probably also be true of the eyes, the fingers, or just about anything else. In a cinematic universe like Torg, putting out your opponent's eye might just enrage them; hard to say. Maybe in a cinematic universe like Torg, getting one's nuts shot off would just make an opponent fight all the harder.

But as a tactic it's kind of juvenile. Might be good for a laugh the first time, but if a player tried to turn it into a frequent exploit, I'd have to put my foot down.

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Rabbitball
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby Rabbitball » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:21 pm

If a gun has an ammo rating of 11, can it Rapid Fire 3 targets or 4?

If a gun runs out of ammo and Malfunctions, does a single action clear both conditions?

Who can spend Possibilities to reduce vehicle damage: driver only, passengers, or whoever has them?
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
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"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:14 pm

Rabbitball wrote:If a gun has an ammo rating of 11, can it Rapid Fire 3 targets or 4?



We specify that if it's close, let them have it.


If a gun runs out of ammo and Malfunctions, does a single action clear both conditions?



No.


Who can spend Possibilities to reduce vehicle damage: driver only, passengers, or whoever has them?


Driver only.
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

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Gargoyle
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:10 am

hawaiianbrian wrote:
Kuildeous wrote:I'm the opposite. I wouldn't consider it a vital blow. A humiliating blow, sure, but if you're trying to kill someone dead, then shooting off dangly bits is counterproductive when you could be focusing on organs and major arteries.

I'm no gunshot expert, but I would need some heavy persuasion to convince me that a hole ripped into one's upper chest is less painful than having your nuts blown off. Certainly you can't tell me it's less lethal.


No, it's certainly less lethal, but when it comes to removing an opponent from combat, it isn't necessary to kill them. Literally shooting them in the testes would pretty much remove the fight from anyone -- thus, effectively taking them out of combat. In the "real world," that would probably also be true of the eyes, the fingers, or just about anything else. In a cinematic universe like Torg, putting out your opponent's eye might just enrage them; hard to say. Maybe in a cinematic universe like Torg, getting one's nuts shot off would just make an opponent fight all the harder.

But as a tactic it's kind of juvenile. Might be good for a laugh the first time, but if a player tried to turn it into a frequent exploit, I'd have to put my foot down.


I think in reality it could take someone out of the fight from shock. I've never seen anyone get their balls shot off, however, I have seen a young man lose them in a car accident. He was dazed, very confused and upset mentally, and bleeding a lot. Of course he probably had other trauma too that I couldn't see, but the main thing was his testicles. He didn't die, but he couldn't do more than stand around holding what was left of his junk. My suspicion is that in a fight, adrenaline might keep someone going or they might even get enraged, but I'm just speculating.

As far as melee I have taken a lot of shots to the groin when sparring, and I've seen it many more times; most people don't wear a cup because they don't think about it or don't like them...until they take one of those hard shots. I'm an instructor at a martial arts school (not my day job, but I "work" there at least a couple of nights a week), and the reaction to it is either they are on the ground immediately writhing in pain, or they get a few shots in then start to stagger, or they just soldier on and complain about it later. It varies a lot, and for self defense classes, you have to remind people that a good kick there isn't necessarily a fight ender...you have to be prepared that the guy will just get mad.

The game isn't reality though, so anecdotes or even statistically accurate data isn't really so relevant. I think played for fun, shooting someone like that once might be funny. There was a scene in the Preacher tv series where it happened when he was sniping a bunch of people assaulting his church, and it was well done, shocking without being too silly. Imagine if it happened every episode though....not so much. I agree it's a bit juvenile and not something I'd like to see a lot of. I like to tell my players up front that Torg is a cinematic game, and I want to encourage them to be cinematic, but that includes originality...they can't keep pulling the same tricks. If they try to swing on a chandelier more than once, it gets less and less effective.

One nice thing about the oTorg Vital Blow is that it was non-specific; they didn't have to specify where they were aiming. So the GM and/or player could narrate that a successful Vital Blow was in a different spot every time if you wanted or not even specify, just assuming that it hit something critical. The new system has more player agency because by default you specify a location first, sort of prompting them to do what some players did in the old system and specify the desired result, which I like, but you may end up with endless head shots (or groin shots). Tradeoffs...but the GM always has the last say, so I say if they are making the game less fun, just change it up for them.
"That old chestnut?"

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dev/null
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby dev/null » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:21 pm

Kuildeous wrote:I'm the opposite. I wouldn't consider it a vital blow. A humiliating blow, sure, but if you're trying to kill someone dead, then shooting off dangly bits is counterproductive when you could be focusing on organs and major arteries.

I'm no gunshot expert, but I would need some heavy persuasion to convince me that a hole ripped into one's upper chest is less painful than having your nuts blown off. Certainly you can't tell me it's less lethal.


I assure you that the parts with far more nerve endings will be immensely more painful. That is not the chest. Further, the chest is more likely to be covered by literally ANY kind of armor, while the other target is not. Even in many types of armors that cover the legs, they don't cover that area due to the need for moving one's legs to walk, and/or ride a horse, though there may or may not be something from the torso that hangs low. That doesn't mean it will always be blocking the shot, either.

hawaiianbrian wrote:But as a tactic it's kind of juvenile. Might be good for a laugh the first time, but if a player tried to turn it into a frequent exploit, I'd have to put my foot down.


When fighting for one's life, juvenile is an invalid concept regarding tactics. However, the easy solution is that the minions being targeted are female. If it's a decidedly male, and/or named villain whose gender is relevant, there are other ways around this. But if you want to make someone stop fighting, going for vitals (and sensitive points, usually deemed vital) is key. That's a lot of blood loss you're going to be suffering, especially between adrenaline and gravity.

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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby dev/null » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:25 pm

TorgHacker wrote:It's usually a pretty small list. There are no 'generic' Mishaps...a 1 (or 1-2 or 1-4) only counts as a Mishap if you're doing something that has a Mishap effect. Most of the time this is one of three things:

1. Creating a contradiction
2. Firing Rapid Fire or Full Auto
3. Casting a spell.


Since this has come up in the combat options, casting a spell, I have a curiosity which I don't think was mentioned in the preview on spells.

Is it possible to multi-target a single target spell, in any way? For example: I cast Bullet at two targets instead of one. Is there a Perk for something like this? Would it apply to burst radius spells as well (Altered Fireball at two targets, where it then bursts separately)?

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:50 pm

You can Multi-Target with offensive spells like Bullet, but the rules for Area of Effect attacks state explicitly that you can't use the Multi-Targeting rules.
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Rabbitball
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Re: Preview #11 - Combat Options and Vehicles

Postby Rabbitball » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:57 pm

TorgHacker wrote:You can Multi-Target with offensive spells like Bullet, but the rules for Area of Effect attacks state explicitly that you can't use the Multi-Targeting rules.


In OTorg, you could limit the number of targets based on cast time of the spell. Now with spells having cast times listed in number of actions, how does that work?
Dominick Riesland, aka Rabbitball
Co-author, Aysle Sourcebook for Torg Eternity
Creator of the Cosmversal Grimoire
"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering


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