Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

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Gargoyle
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Gargoyle » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:36 pm

carldot34 wrote:Thank you for your reply, gargoyle. You're right, of course, on all counts, and it would not be unreasonable to just to house rule it as a flat +2, +5, as a minimum +1 bonus like active defense, as a 'take ten' or something else. Once we have given the RAW a fair chance of course, as TorgHacker keeps suggesting we do, lol.


10-4, me too. The only house rule I'm going to add in the beginning is the GM's fiat, but I've always been a fan of running new games RAW for a while anyway and keeping house rules short and well documented.

That said, if I really don't like a rule, no reason to live with it...if I changed Favored I'd probably go with something like take 10, but I'd still not let them avoid mishaps, they seem to be pretty fun in this edition.
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby blackwind1kaze » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:51 pm

If favored seems clunky enough, I'd probably do roll 2d20 taking either result unless you roll a 1 on a die. At least to save time. But we'll see :)
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Kuildeous
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Kuildeous » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:02 pm

carldot34 wrote:it just feels too much like the Advantage rule in 5e of That Other Roleplaying Game. Torg doesn't need it to feel like Torg. I know my players will recognise its parentage the very first time we use it and it will make Torg feel like it is copying instead of leading.


Well, it is a bit different from D&D's Advantage/Disadvantage in that it really acts more like a Second Chance card--but one that does not work when a mishap is rolled and one that requires the new value to be accepted. So its resemblance to that mechanic mostly lies in the fact that they use 2d20 and pick one.

But if your players feel like Torg is copying D&D with the Favored mechanism, you can point out that the mechanism has actually been in place since 1992 when the Tharkold sourcebook came out. Tharkold introduced (to my knowledge) the concept of rolling two dice and keeping one with demon luck. Great Alphas and those who dominate them had "Advantage" on everything they did--even if they were ords. Storm Knights had the ability to shut down demon luck (I forgot about that, and I don't think I ever let my players know about it, oops).

Its parentage is actually itself.
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Kuildeous » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:06 pm

blackwind1kaze wrote:If favored seems clunky enough, I'd probably do roll 2d20 taking either result unless you roll a 1 on a die. At least to save time. But we'll see :)


That would be interesting. It'd make mishaps a little more likely, but the payoff would be greater when there is no mishap.

If you mishap on a 1, then rolling two dice would give you 9.75% chance of rolling at least one mishap.
If you mishap on a 1-4, then rolling two dice would give you a 36% chance of rolling at least one mishap.

Of course, you could roll two different colors of d20s. One of them is the "control" die. The other is the favored die. If you mishap on the control die, then you suffer a mishap. A mishap on the favored die is ignored. You can still choose the higher value if you don't mishap.
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Rabbitball » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:53 pm

carldot34 wrote:After considering it, have decided I am not a fan of Favored. It is a) another thing to slow game play while a player decides whether they should reroll, b) players will want to use it to avoid Mishaps and then grumble when they can't or c) try to pick up the dice before anyone notices the Mishap and d) my primary reason; it just feels too much like the Advantage rule in 5e of That Other Roleplaying Game. Torg doesn't need it to feel like Torg. I know my players will recognise its parentage the very first time we use it and it will make Torg feel like it is copying instead of leading.
Probably too late for my opinion to matter now though.


a) The suggestion has been that players will know their Target Numbers in most cases. So the choice for rerolls will often be easy:
  • I'm about to fail.
  • I need to get a Good (or Outstanding) success and even a Possibility is unlikely to make that from here.
  • I just rolled a 10; no way I'm changing that!

But even in those hard cases, the players love agonizing over them most of the time. The OTorg Adventure Book had a section about what to do when the players have lots of cards out and are trying to figure out the best line of play and trade to finish off the opposition. Their suggestion: let them. That's what the game is building to, and the GM can use the time to plan out the next encounter—or scarf up all the nachos. :twisted: This is a small version of the "problem" Torg gameplay creates.

b) Reminding players that it doesn't let the villains avoid Mishaps either can help with that "feel bad".

c) If a player cheats like that, we have other issues than the rules of Torg, IMO.

d) It's not Advantage. It specifically is "roll one die; check for Mishap, then decide to accept or reject." And while there are superficial similarities, we already have enough differences to enforce the feel of Torg. Also, since most of the players I run into for Adventurer's League roll both dice at once for Advantage, the forced separation of the rolls will reinforce the difference.
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Kuildeous » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:40 pm

It might be handy to keep track of what Mishaps are fixable and what are unavoidable.

Favored? Unavoidable
Second Chance card?
Up?
Possibility?


I couldn't remember if you reroll on a Mishap on an Up. If you do, then that will make Mishaps unlikely (but possible if the dice add up to 2, 3, or 4).

And sure players may grouse that they can't avoid a Mishap with a Favored skill, but can they avoid it with a Possibility? If not, then they'll quickly get used to it.
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Rabbitball » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:47 pm

Kuildeous wrote:It might be handy to keep track of what Mishaps are fixable and what are unavoidable.

Favored? Unavoidable
Second Chance card?
Up?
Possibility?


I couldn't remember if you reroll on a Mishap on an Up. If you do, then that will make Mishaps unlikely (but possible if the dice add up to 2, 3, or 4).

And sure players may grouse that they can't avoid a Mishap with a Favored skill, but can they avoid it with a Possibility? If not, then they'll quickly get used to it.


From what I remember, only the Second Chance can avoid the Mishap by completely replacing the first die roll with another "first" die roll. Mishap prevents the use of Favored, and Up and Possibility can cause the action to succeed (unless the first roll is the "auto-fail" roll of 1) but does not avoid the eventual Mishap.
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"Those who will not follow are doomed to lead"—Anarchist, Magic: the Gathering

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dev/null
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby dev/null » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:03 pm

Have been away from the forums a bit, but I don't see why everything thinks this is like Advantage, and continually mentions being able to pick the higher result for Favored. You don't get the higher, you get the second.

TorgHacker wrote:You have to take the 2nd roll no matter what, you don't get to choose the highest of the two.


TorgHacker wrote:The Favored rule means that if you roll a 6 and re-roll and get a 1, you have to take the 1. That doesn't mean that it's a Mishap though.

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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Rabbitball » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:43 pm

dev/null wrote:Have been away from the forums a bit, but I don't see why everything thinks this is like Advantage, and continually mentions being able to pick the higher result for Favored. You don't get the higher, you get the second.



You get people who have Advantage stuck so hard in their head that they don't see Favored is different. Some may actually wish it was Advantage, and may very well house rule it to be that. And remember in the early days of AL there were people who treated Inspiration as a reroll when it really was Advantage. So yes, it plays in the same brainspace, just with different toys. :D
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Loswaith
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Re: Preview #16 - A Closer Look at Perks (Part 2)

Postby Loswaith » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:01 pm

I'd likely house-rule for favoured that the player can still re-roll a 1 result of the 'first roll', but cant avoid the mishap, as I have always liked the idea of successes with 'complications' (something few systems have built in). They often add interesting and fun results to the game when done well, and represent that "dumb luck" aspect many cinematic heroes often get.


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