Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Jim
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Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby Jim » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:55 pm

Hey folks!

I'm starting this thread to continue the conversations some of us we're having in the Cyberpapacy and Aysle thread. It was on topic, but we were heavily focused on what we're looking to see from the cosm going past the Core Rules (as we actually understand them as of this writing). If you're coming late, for context, the Core PDFs are hopefully coming tonight or tomorrow. Soon we'll have a better idea of what we're talking about. I'm going to copy some of the recent posts to get us restarted.

Also, Aysle is not in the subject line any longer and we won't confuse anyone.

Hmmmm... I might just refer to the original posts with hyperlinks and send PMs to the original authors. Without Forum powers this looks complicated and potentially confusing.

Jim
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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby Jim » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:19 pm

Utsukushi wrote:Combining cyberpunk with the soul? I've never seen anything come close. Not even Cthulhupunk really touched on this, and it should have. So what I mean is less that I don't think it's possible to come up with new and interesting ideas purely under the cybertech umbrella, and more that I think the Cyberpapacy has something five times cooler to work with and it would be a shame to ignore that potential. oTorg used it less than I'd have liked - SpiritChips are the only real Cybertech I remember involving it especially, and then a lot about both the shape and underlying reality of GodNet - and it still blew me away.


No, I can't quite think of anything quite like it since Count Zero, by Gibson. You had those AI's assuming the identities of Hatian deities.

Utsukushi wrote:But the Perks that we have seen - some of them, like the Ion Gusoku (Possitron's left leg) might be subject to Disconnection in other Realities, but they haven't posted anything that isn't useful in other Realities. So unless GodNet does exist in Cosms that, as has been pointed out, don't even have computers... Decking Perks, like a Decker Character Archetype, are just too limited for a multi-Reality game. Nobody wants to only be awesome in their own back yard.


It's a very fair point. One reason I dragged ass in replying is because we're getting so damn close to seeing the actual rules. It might well have to be skill based. Maybe a Perk that works with a skill? You take this one Perk and then you can use the Computer Skill for advanced uses. Yeah yeah, you might see that as one 'wasted' perk, but if it's just one, I might be able to live with it.

Utsukushi wrote:That said - yeah, I think this is the direction to start moving in. They just need to be broad enough to still apply at least in the Cosms that have electronics at all. But... good grief. Whoever said computers don't exist in half the realities wasn't exaggerating: Aysle, Living Land, and Orrorsh have absolutely nothing, and if the Nile Empire has a LAN anywhere, it's Weird Science. Now, it's true that characters from anywhere are going to be causing Contradictions using their specialties anywhere else, but everything else, you can do. Even if we expand Decking to work on any kind of computer, your Perks still don't apply, at all, to half the setting. This is definitely a problem.


Indeed, hopefully we will be more informed by tomorrow!

Necanthrope wrote:I find it very intriguing that one the most religious cosm arrives in France, one the lead secular countries in the world.


That is kinda funny (as in odd and ironic) isn't it? Skipping the part about Languages, because I think Dean addressed it.

carldot34 wrote:I was thinking about how hackers might interact outside of computers. I think most players will accept the trade off between superhero in the Net and just competent elsewhere. You might be looking for a problem that either isn't there or is only there for a player that wants to be powerful in any cosm.

I played a hacker (slicer) in Star Wars and the lack of tech on the various planets became a defining complaint for him, not a negative. A lack of the Net in some locations can be defining, depending g on how the player tackles it. Not having access to subroutines outside of the net is no less limiting than your electric samurai's armour and weapons in low tech realms.

So, to summarise, let's not fix a problem before we know it IS a problem.


This is a fair point and I kinda lean in this direction. It depends (for me) how many character resources do you actually have to give up to get that functionality in the Cyberpapacy that you may not be able to use as well elsewhere. If it's a modest investment, it might be okay just to let each player make an informed choice?

The counterpoint is in adventure design. Do the players ever get in a spot where they can't advance? If its the failure to take a skill, that's on them, but if its a failure to take a specialized perk, you better design an alternate way around that encounter.

Okay... I'm going to turn this thread loose and maybe we can get the conversation jumpstarted again.

But don't sweat it, this will be a good place to pick up once we have the rules.

Jim
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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby Jim » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:08 pm

Weeeelll. I've seen the Core Rules and have been reading them.

I love most of what I see, but I am cool towards my favorite Cosm.

All I'm seeing is the "hard light" approach. There are references to hacking the Godnet and that its dangerous and difficult. That's like one sentence. I see the Reliquaries, and I get how that could help to involve more players. You physically have to go there to hack in, whatever that actually entails.

There's a reference to to hacking in maybe one sentence in the GM section.

I don't know what to think, but its killed my excitement considerably. I'm looking at other cosms to try to get it back.

I think I have a better way of articulating my concerns. If you make The Host a bunch of hard light holograms than they're just angels. We can call them digital manifestations of computer programs manifested by an AI, except you shoot 'em with guns and beat 'em down with baseball bats (not literally, I mean they're a physical combat encounter that we're implying is somehow related to advanced computer science). I mean, what actually differentiates them what they are and what they look like? If you want to reinforce the theme and not bust suspension of disbelief you have to do more than just give it a different name. Its like arguing a specific brand of peanut butter is not "peanut butter" but is actually "creamy nut spread."

And I'm concerned that the GodNet is destined to just become a plot device. Plot devices aren't bad things, but that feels like a step backward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, nobody wants to have the hacker split the party to have a mini-adventure. I'm just hoping the future sourcebook has something more in store than what I can see right now.

The politics and social aspects of the Cyberpapacy? The gamification of faith? All of that is pretty brilliant stuff. There's a lot of good in the material. And, less I be misunderstood, there's nothing that suggests my concerns are actually legitimate. Everything is far off and four sourcebooks down the line. There's just nothing to reassure me either.

carldot34
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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby carldot34 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:13 pm

I will have to did out my oTorg Godnet book and see how they dealt with it. After 20 something years, I'm a bit hazy on the details.
I don't expect them to stray too far from the original material.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:20 pm

The Cyberpapacy book will certainly have a lot more to say on the Godnet.

The core book by necessity is broad but shallow.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Jim
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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby Jim » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:24 pm

I could be completely off-base and I could be forgetting stuff.

It's the situation. Some of this stuff could be completely undecided. The lack of specifics probably gets to me. But then again, there are three cosm books ahead of this one.

TorgHacker wrote:The Cyberpapacy book will certainly have a lot more to say on the Godnet.

The core book by necessity is broad but shallow.


I get that. Its just hard to keep the faith when it was something that really sparked my imagination. (Pun not intended, but plainly visible). I'll be the first to admit I didn't actually try playing with the rules.

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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:27 pm

Perhaps you'll feel better once you see the first couple of cosm books.

Let me put it this way though. Darrell's favorite cosm is the Cyberpapacy, and I love it too, especially the Godnet.

But let me turn it around...what aspects of the classic Godnet are you particularly hoping to see?
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Jim
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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby Jim » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:35 pm

Very fair question, let me ponder an articulate answer.

In the meantime, you're on the right track. I want to feel better. :)

carldot34
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Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby carldot34 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:45 pm

Sorry it's off topic. Is there a release schedule for the cosm books? Could someone point me at it?

MAJT

Re: Cyberpapacy Beyond the Core Rules

Postby MAJT » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:46 pm

27 years does funny things to our memories!

I think we all forget that the Cosm books REALLY added so much to each realm.

I'm fine with your current plan of beginning slowly and building up slowly. We're all salivating over getting our cool stuff, but nobody wants power creep either.


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