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Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:20 am
by mistervimes
FrankG wrote:Ahh... that's a good argument mistervimes. That does make sense to me.


One of my biggest challenges with TorgE is that I tend to do my own world building. The last time that I'd run a setting specific system was a few years ago and it was "Star Wars." Answers to Star Wars questions are in abundance; with TorgE (despite my experience with oTorg) there are a great many unknowns. It's unrealistic for the developers to world build all of the cosms to the level of specificity that would make the cosms simulationist. Deanna wisely pointed out that the minutae is left to us (and rightly so). Every table will be different and there is no wrong answer for our tables. I think that's a good thing and lets me flex my worldbuilder muscles within the rich setting(s) provided.

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:26 pm
by TorgHacker
mistervimes wrote:
FrankG wrote:Ahh... that's a good argument mistervimes. That does make sense to me.


One of my biggest challenges with TorgE is that I tend to do my own world building. The last time that I'd run a setting specific system was a few years ago and it was "Star Wars." Answers to Star Wars questions are in abundance; with TorgE (despite my experience with oTorg) there are a great many unknowns. It's unrealistic for the developers to world build all of the cosms to the level of specificity that would make the cosms simulationist. Deanna wisely pointed out that the minutae is left to us (and rightly so). Every table will be different and there is no wrong answer for our tables. I think that's a good thing and lets me flex my worldbuilder muscles within the rich setting(s) provided.


More than that, I'm an advocate for letting the players also partake in world building, especially in situations where the GM doesn't care what the answer is either. :-)

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:46 pm
by mistervimes
TorgHacker wrote:
mistervimes wrote:
FrankG wrote:Ahh... that's a good argument mistervimes. That does make sense to me.


One of my biggest challenges with TorgE is that I tend to do my own world building. The last time that I'd run a setting specific system was a few years ago and it was "Star Wars." Answers to Star Wars questions are in abundance; with TorgE (despite my experience with oTorg) there are a great many unknowns. It's unrealistic for the developers to world build all of the cosms to the level of specificity that would make the cosms simulationist. Deanna wisely pointed out that the minutae is left to us (and rightly so). Every table will be different and there is no wrong answer for our tables. I think that's a good thing and lets me flex my worldbuilder muscles within the rich setting(s) provided.


More than that, I'm an advocate for letting the players also partake in world building, especially in situations where the GM doesn't care what the answer is either. :-)


And I concur. Modern gaming has taught this old dog some new tricks. I support collaborative world building and narration.

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:52 pm
by Atama
mistervimes wrote:
FrankG wrote:
mistervimes wrote:2) When a stelae is yanked, the dinosaurs transform into core earth dinos.


This doesn't feel right to me. Per the Transformation section in the Core Rulebook:

Races found only in other cosms, including edeinos, elves, and dwarves, don’t change race if they transform, but they may become confused or crazed by the process. Elves


This is specifically referring to Ords so I think this would remain true for beasts.


And if it doesn't feel right, do what feels right to you. My thinking is that edeinos, elves, and dwarves don’t change race if they transform, but their cosm dependent Perks are a different case. The size and variations of the (kind of) dinosaurs are a result of the Living Land law of life, so, for my table, it makes sense for them to no longer conform to that law. Your mileage may vary.

The other side of this is that Reality seems to apply a bit differently to sentient species and non-sentients. Which makes sense; how much do axioms matter to an animal? A mollusk isn’t using a machine gun no matter the cosm and a frog isn’t going to start discussing Shakespeare because the Social axiom increased. Animals are unlikely to cause contradictions, but conversely they’re not immune to changing species.

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:27 pm
by TorgHacker
Yup. One of the benefits for being a bit vague on the reality rules is that it makes it easier to say, "What do you want to happen" and then come up with a post hoc rationalization.

I know some don't like that, and I get it, but the advantages to doing it this way outnumber the drawbacks.

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:39 pm
by Sarren
Just an idea, the specifics of the dinos is their race, therefore they wouldnt change when crossing borders, much like the elf and Dwarf from Asyle.
This is important in the group I'm in, as one of the players specifically made a bullrider character to get a triceratop

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:51 pm
by Atama
Sarren wrote:Just an idea, the specifics of the dinos is their race, therefore they wouldnt change when crossing borders, much like the elf and Dwarf from Asyle.
This is important in the group I'm in, as one of the players specifically made a bullrider character to get a triceratop

“Dino” is a species not a race. Animals transform into other animals frequently.

Of course as GM you can provide plot armor to a favored mount or pet. Or rule that the Storm Knight’s Reality skill protects the animal as it does their gear.

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:14 pm
by Blightcrawler
Atama wrote:“Dino” is a species not a race. Animals transform into other animals frequently.


Dinosaurs are a class (probably) of many orders, families, genera, and species ;), but yeah, race requires ignorant humans making arbitrary superficial categories, not any reflection of nature or biology or expression of science. But it does seem to be established that animals can be transformed by possibility energy into wildly different creatures, with only a similarity in ecological niche.

But stepping away from pedantry, the only thing clearly spelled out is that the variety and size of the dinosaurs is increased due to the Living Land laws. Their existence, unlike magical creatures of Aylse, is not necessarily dependant upon it. The law of savagery makes them more aggressive (and possibly more reptilian). The fact that LL dinosaurs are cold-blooded only means they'd struggle or die in colder climates outside of the warmth of LL zones.

Are they more strongly tied to the law of life for their very existence, or did the Law (and Lanala) more simply prevent any extinction event from taking effect? Is Takta Ker an alternate Earth, diverged by hundreds of millions of years and a spiritual power bordering on literal truth, or is a completely alien world with largely superficial similarities in life forms? Is Lanala an alien god from another reality, or does Her power permeate the universe, and She just was never contacted in this reality before the invasion?

These are statements about the reality of Torg ya'll get to make, and even explore to some degree, by deciding how these cosms interact with Core Earth, and what transforms and what does not. What seems more interesting to the group? What creates a multiverse that is more compelling to fight for? Sometimes what seems superficially and immediately logical isn't the best way to go about things, especially when there's a bigger picture to consider.

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:37 pm
by FrankG
Atama wrote:Animals transform into other animals frequently.


Can you cite this in the rules? Or cite a reference to this happening in any of the material? (Yes, I'm too lazy to look harder than I looked just now.)

Re: Dinosaurs and Transformation

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:12 am
by Atama
FrankG wrote:
Atama wrote:Animals transform into other animals frequently.


Can you cite this in the rules? Or cite a reference to this happening in any of the material? (Yes, I'm too lazy to look harder than I looked just now.)

Page 243 of the Core Rules, describing the Living Land.

“The dinosaurs and other mighty beasts of the Living Land didn’t all arrive through a maelstrom bridge. Many are transformed reptiles or birds from Earth, warped by the axiom wash.”

I didn’t just make it up... ;)