What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:33 pm

TorgHacker wrote:Incidentally, this "I wish we hadn't gone Social 18" is why I don't like to lock things down unless we absolutely have to.


Unless there is a reason for Social 18 specifically in the Cyberpapacy rule book, I'm tempted to put the social down to 14 in my game. It doesn't effect day to day interaction, but it does fit in better with a monolithic organisation like the Cyberchurch. There would still be in-fighting and politics but the idea of another organisation like the church would seem impossible and, dear I say, blasphemous!
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Matthew Surridge
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby Matthew Surridge » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:59 pm

Arcesilaus wrote:
Matthew Surridge wrote:
Yoric wrote:[*] All the names (including company names with the possible exception of MAS) are in English. The only justification I see for this would be that they are branded and manufactured for export? This sounds... possible, I guess?[/list]

Any thoughts?


FWIW, I've been kicking around the idea that a lot of the Cyberpapal names and terms were originally in Latin, with translations into French and English following from that. But I'll see what happens when the sourcebook comes out. Wasn't oTorg translated into French at some point?

FWIW, as a Latin scholar, I'd be happy to help with any work you may end up doing on this project.


Wow, neat! Thanks!
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MadSci
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby MadSci » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:25 pm

Wakshani wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Incidentally, this "I wish we hadn't gone Social 18" is why I don't like to lock things down unless we absolutely have to.


Yeah, Social 14 would have been so much smoother.

Then again, it gave a few great story hooks, so, it worked out okay.

Which gives a great "Thing is bad for society and corrupts the youth so IT MUST BE DESTROYED!" vibe, which is seen in reactionary forces all troughout history. I mean, come on, the Bonfire of the Vanities? How can you NOT use that stuff?

"Round up the heretic! Tie them to the post! Pile those wretched THINGS about them! We'll make a funeral pyre of your sins!"

That's *vintage* villainy!


Maybe the vintage villainy would be saved to purge witches. Cyber dystopia could offer (force) cures to chip other abominations from the soul.

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Yoric
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby Yoric » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:53 am

Wakshani wrote:
TorgHacker wrote:Incidentally, this "I wish we hadn't gone Social 18" is why I don't like to lock things down unless we absolutely have to.


Yeah, Social 14 would have been so much smoother.

Then again, it gave a few great story hooks, so, it worked out okay.

Which gives a great "Thing is bad for society and corrupts the youth so IT MUST BE DESTROYED!" vibe, which is seen in reactionary forces all troughout history. I mean, come on, the Bonfire of the Vanities? How can you NOT use that stuff?

"Round up the heretic! Tie them to the post! Pile those wretched THINGS about them! We'll make a funeral pyre of your sins!"

That's *vintage* villainy!


The Bonfire of Vanities would work very, very well with the Cyberpapacy, indeed - although it might need some imagination. For historical context, the Bonfires of Vanities were the result of a mystical + pre-socialist revolution led by a Dominican (read "Inquisitor") in 15th century Florence. So yeah, maybe first days of the Cyberpapacy in some region?

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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby Kanaris » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:55 am

Yoric wrote:The Bonfire of Vanities would work very, very well with the Cyberpapacy, indeed - although it might need some imagination. For historical context, the Bonfires of Vanities were the result of a mystical + pre-socialist revolution led by a Dominican (read "Inquisitor") in 15th century Florence. So yeah, maybe first days of the Cyberpapacy in some region?


Though he was later excommunicated and hanged as a heretic ;) Before that though, he was going to perform the first "trial by fire" in Florence for centuries. It's fascinating story and not part of the Renaissance that normally gets told. But then the "Malleus Maleficarum" (sometimes called "The Witches' Hammer") was only published in 1487. I always found it weird that the craze to burn witches was a phenomenon of the 15th - 17th centuries and not earlier. For most of its life the Church was much more concerned with heresy. That may be a historical justification for the higher social axiom as the joint stock company had well and truly been invented during that time (though I too would have the social axiom of Cyberpapacy lower than that of Orrorsh, and 14 before human rights and independent charitable organisations exists does seem about right and worthy of consideration through a house rule).

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Yoric
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby Yoric » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:38 am

Kanaris wrote:
Though he was later excommunicated and hanged as a heretic ;)



Yeah, but if my memory serves, he was excommunicated not for religious reasons but because Florence had joined the wrong side during the ongoing wars in Italy :)

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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby QuarrelBlue » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:54 am

TorgHacker wrote:Now, in Torg Eternity we changed it up and decided that we'd make it so the Cyberpapacy would have seen the tech surge happen hundreds of years ago so it was a mature cybernetic setting. We chose at the time of the Core Book to keep it at Social 18. In hindsight, after considering the impact of the choice we made, I'd have gone and just slapped it back down to Social 14, and not had corporations at all.

But that's not what we did, so the Core Book has corporation names associated with the cyberware, weapons, vehicles, etc. So when we developed the Cyberpapacy for the sourcebook we needed to explain those. And we have...they're guilds associated with monastic orders rather than corporations, and we go into some detail on these (admittedly most of that detail had to be shunted to the Secrets PDFs).

But yes, one of the tacks we took was that with the Church (nominally) able to control everything, and little social progress being made, what would that look like? Corporations seemed out, but I used the fact that socialism was possible at Social 18 and leaned into _that_ especially since it made a good contrast with Pan-Pacifica which is more of a capitalist dystopia.

Then those Guild TechMonasteries are something like Soviet Design Bureaus, like MiG and Yak, praying for new blueprints instead of researching?

For Social Axiom, I prefer keeping 18. Although matching "mature cybernatic setting" and "regressed society than it could be" is not easy, but "Revolutionary Era people versus Ancien Regime theocracy" is important aspect of Cyberpapacy, and I hope keeping it.
(If I could, I may have portrayed Cyberpope in this new setting as "a Strong Leader who brought back the Old Way", a massive reactionist who has successfully completed a restoration of dogmatic autocracy at a certain point of history...Maybe he came instead of Napoleon?)

For current setting I feel that Cyberpapal seemingly-benevolent "Salvation" and " Missionary" expansion system justifies Social Axiom 18.
(And for massive social welfare systems needed for "Where people’s needs are entirely met, as long as you don’t need freedom", all the propaganda machines to keep people under Cyberpope's flock, and de facto Global Government on Magna Verita, even Social Axiom 18 seems a bit low. Honestly speaking, the way new cyberpapal propaganda going very smoothly seems somehow more like Nippon Tech, rather than Cyberpapacy, to me)
Last edited by QuarrelBlue on Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wakshani
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby Wakshani » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:52 am

Yoric wrote:
Kanaris wrote:
Though he was later excommunicated and hanged as a heretic ;)



Yeah, but if my memory serves, he was excommunicated not for religious reasons but because Florence had joined the wrong side during the ongoing wars in Italy :)


In the research leading up to all of this, I went and consumed a Leonardo biography that talked about this one a bit, as well as detailing Leo just chillin' with the Borgias and Machievelli and I was busy being gobsmacked by all of those big names in one spot at the same time. It laid out the Popes of the day, with all the murder and siring of kids, the pushback for "morality", and a bunch of other stuff. Watching a town hire Leonardo to paint a wall of their town hall, despite him having skipped out on a commission before, then hiring Michelangelo to paint the facing wall, and the competition between the two that flared up... man. There was some serious STUFF going on!

Guilds, of course, were a major Thing back in the day, a combination of secret societys and unions on steroids. A Guild was *extremely* protective of their niche and would shut out, beat down, or sometimes "disappear" rivals that encroached into their territory, while setting up "arrangements" between guilds to ensure other approaches weren't viable. Secret signs, passwords, meeting halls... it's a rich tapestry and you can easily get sidelined into conspiracy land. The Masons, for instance, started as just the Stonemasons Guild, where they had lots of engineering papers with angles, math, and so on, which some thought of as sorcery and.... man. You can spend a long, long time down some WEIRD rabbit holes.

Similarly, the Templars. Easy to study, but 90% of what's out there is conspiracy garbage and sifting through it to find the real information is a challenge. Sometimes you won't figure it out until two hundred pages into a read, only to get to "And then they summoned a demon..." and you gotta NOPE! and toss it over a shoulder to grab the next book.

And then there are the assorted Orders...

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pkitty
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby pkitty » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:26 am

I'd like to think that the (relatively) high Social Axiom is something the Church has been fighting against, not something it engineered. The Social 18 rose from the people -- both as an undercurrent from the masses, who may be docile as a whole but still expect a certain level of societal fairness and such, and as the conscious work of the rebels and outcasts. So where Social 18 might normally describe how the world is, here it describes how the world wants to be, if the Church wasn't doing everything in its power to stand in the way.
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GeniusCodeMonkey
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Re: What's behind the names of Cyberpapacy augments and weapons?

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:16 am

pkitty wrote:I'd like to think that the (relatively) high Social Axiom is something the Church has been fighting against, not something it engineered. The Social 18 rose from the people -- both as an undercurrent from the masses, who may be docile as a whole but still expect a certain level of societal fairness and such, and as the conscious work of the rebels and outcasts. So where Social 18 might normally describe how the world is, here it describes how the world wants to be, if the Church wasn't doing everything in its power to stand in the way.


I like that idea that the church/high lord isn't responsible for the 18 axiom and they actively fight it through persecution and rhetoric.
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