Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

fougerec
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby fougerec » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:37 pm

Adding my voice to the encouraging posts. I largely keep silent on issues of gender because I'm CIS, straight, male but it's amazing to see more and more games address inclusiveness and gender. Keep up the good work!!

Kanaris
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby Kanaris » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:44 pm

I'm a cishet male and I too think inclusiveness is very important and that representation matters. There'll always be a proportion of complainers, but I'd like to think they are a minority in the Torg fandom. Anyway, there is an established connection between the cyberpunk genre and transgender issues which totally justifies at least a brief treatment in the CP book. A gamebook is obviously not the place to deal with the complexities, but that doesn't mean something short and meaningful can't be included. Plus, IMHO, the game (or any creative artefact) does not belong completely to the fans - some of it at least should be an expression of the unmediated will and imagination of the creators.

forbinproject
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby forbinproject » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:51 pm

cishet male here also adding generally supportive vibes to inclusivity and representation in gaming. It matters, and it's good that it's happening in 'mainstream' games.

I attended a panel on the Indie Gaming Scene at Dragonmeet last w/e, and the general feeling was that indie games have led the way in inclusivity and that that has influenced games like D&D into having better all-round representation around race, gender and identity. It's great to include Torg in that.

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pkitty
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby pkitty » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:13 pm

I feel like this is such an easy thing to fix -- just add a "most". Most Storm Knights assume their ideal forms when they transcend. That's all you have to say, and it leaves the door wide open for players to fall outside of that "most" without having to get GM permission.
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Yoric
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby Yoric » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:38 pm

TorgHacker wrote:BTW, this is a good resource for knowing how to (and how not to) talk about transgender people.

Problematic words are lower down. ("transgenderism" is one of them)

https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender


Thanks for the resource, I've updated my message above!

Eightybrains
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby Eightybrains » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:27 pm

I know I'm a bit late, but I'd just like to add my opinion onto the pile. I'm really, really happy to see any recognition of trans issues in the context of games at all, even if it's just one sidebar.

pkitty wrote:I feel like this is such an easy thing to fix -- just add a "most". Most Storm Knights assume their ideal forms when they transcend. That's all you have to say, and it leaves the door wide open for players to fall outside of that "most" without having to get GM permission.


That's how I'm running it in my game. It's kind of a big deal too, considering 4 of the Storm Knights are trans in some way. Mostly I'm happy that it's part of the canon at all, seeing as how I've been thinking about the possibility of things working that way since... pretty much when the game came out.
I’m just here ‘cause it’s my Special Interest

QuarrelBlue
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby QuarrelBlue » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:07 pm

With the Transgender Storm Knight Transcendence descriptions, I'm seeing Moment of Crisis and Transcendence as the matter of "Moral Choice of who You are" and "Reaffirm Yourself to defy the limit of Reality" more than ever.

TorgHacker wrote:That said, just because we say X doesn't mean ALWAYS X.

I hope that to be noted somehow, though, since the rulebook text is often the only clue to understand the game world and considered as THE LAW.

Gargoyle wrote:So for me, it's a helluva fantasy to not go through the medical side of transitioning and my reaction was "Sign me up, where are the invaders so I can go make a heroic choice for good?"

After seeing that, I just thought "Can there be Gender Confirmation methods more advanced than Core Earth surgery in other Cosms, available to the Ordinary transgender people?"
Maybe some cyberleggers have better understanding and can apply the right cyberware(Cyberchurch won't be pleased about that, though). Pan-Pacifica Biotech may also have some solutions, but MegaCorp monopoly can bring some affordability problem. Tharkold also has advanced technology to modify human body, but imagining what Law of Pain can do on the delicate part of your body is a bit unnerving. Maybe Lanala knows better about the nature of life and gender, and can provide help when a Jakatt strongly urged...?

And...
Re: Cyberpapacy Preview #9 - The GodNet (Part 2)
TorgHacker wrote:
QuarrelBlue wrote:And "Avatars for transgender, non-binary, and genderfluid people" text answers what I was curious upon hearing the news about "Getting an upgrade in Argentina" and Cyberpapacy on Buenos Aires.
...But, does this mean the Cyberchurch is more benevolent and inclusive toward those people than many of the Core Earth Christianity?

a)Yes, it's an occasional irony that Social 18 invaders can actually make the world better.
b)But The Malraux Bible still has Leviticus 20:13 intact and thus may bring difficult choice to anyone who has any male friend with a same-sex partner.
c)No, and showing who you truly are to ruthless Cyberchurch is not always a good thing.


It's c.

That sounds like the Cyberchurch doesn't take "The God created you that way, nothing wrong" or even "No problem, the holy Cyberware can solve any Flesh problem" attitude.
Do they think "The God obviously didn't created you that way, and everything that isn't creation of the God should be created by Devils" or "Human souls can go astray from the One True Way and we should fix them"?
It's just a speculation, but (assuming the nature of soul and gender isn't much different between Core Earth and Cyberpapacy, and based on what I've heard about similar so-called "therapies") if those Cyberchurch “re-education facilities” think they can "adjust" human souls and identities according to their bodies, there may be some living hell...
(And, in Cyberpapacy, it may be the literal HELL.)

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Gargoyle
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:32 am

QuarrelBlue wrote:
Gargoyle wrote:So for me, it's a helluva fantasy to not go through the medical side of transitioning and my reaction was "Sign me up, where are the invaders so I can go make a heroic choice for good?"

After seeing that, I just thought "Can there be Gender Confirmation methods more advanced than Core Earth surgery in other Cosms, available to the Ordinary transgender people?"
Maybe some cyberleggers have better understanding and can apply the right cyberware(Cyberchurch won't be pleased about that, though). Pan-Pacifica Biotech may also have some solutions, but MegaCorp monopoly can bring some affordability problem. Tharkold also has advanced technology to modify human body, but imagining what Law of Pain can do on the delicate part of your body is a bit unnerving. Maybe Lanala knows better about the nature of life and gender, and can provide help when a Jakatt strongly urged...?


So while I find the subject matter fascinating, and I don't think you're wrong to bring it up, this sort of discussion could lead to some disturbing conversation for trans folk, and I'd like to avoid that out of respect to Deanna and other trans folk here.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

Blightcrawler
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby Blightcrawler » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:02 pm

TorgHacker wrote:But if you have a suggestion for a better way to word this (that doesn't involve the word "transsexual"), I'm all ears.


Thank you for tackling this. I may have come off as a bit gruff because this past year my partner and I have experienced a lot of dismissal and erasure from a few folks with influence in a couple of communities, acting as gatekeepers to what "counts" as transgender (and I'm not counting the bigots who are opposed to all non-cis-gender identities, but people that act like allies until, surprise, they have limits on acceptance). 2019 has some scarring of their are no safe spaces, even with people who we thought shared our identities.

AlternateSidebar wrote:Here's the actual modified text for the Transgender Avatars sidebar:

"Transgender individuals who jack into the GodNet do not necessarily appear as they do in the Flesh.

When someone who is transgender transcends and becomes reality-rated they also transform to the best example of themselves. Thus they appear the same in the GodNet.

Transgender Ords appear as their true gender.

If a person is genderfluid, non-binary and others who don't feel they have a "true" gender, they appear as the gender they currently are their self image."


That's one take. Although the bristling was over "true" gender for those of us who don't have one (or at least not a fixed one).

I'm not sure if your friend is an outlier, but I haven't yet met anyone who rejects their assigned gender and also rejects the idea of being considered transgender. My reaction is: that's its definition? But I'm old (especially for someone who is non-binary.) Maybe they were lucky enough to have parents that didn't assume a gender for them! Maybe it's a sign that "transgender" itself will sound antiquated or even offensive in a decade. I have a number of friends who work in schools, and it seems most kids under the age of 12 (mostly in the SF bay area, but a smattering around the west coast) accept gender as a label, as fluid and flexible as any other. Even if they might not personally change their name or pronouns, at least one kid in their class is. I'm not sure if they would consider themselves transgender or not, either.

If I were to consider your friend as an outlier, I would also propose condensing the last two sentences: "Transgender Ords appear as their self image."

If I wanted to make it inclusive and trying best to capture future labels (and lack thereof): "Ords, regardless of gender identity, appear as their self image."

Not even sure if you need the "regardless" aside. Ords appear as their self image, sounds clear and issue free to me.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Transgender characters in Torg Eternity

Postby TorgHacker » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:28 pm

I did do some changes from the previous language, but the text for the Cyberpapacy SB is now locked, so this is what the final text is:

"Transgender individuals who jack into the GodNet do not necessarily appear as they do in the Flesh.
When someone who is transgender transcends and becomes reality-rated they transform to the best example of themselves, matching their residual self image. Thus they appear the same in the GodNet.
Transgender Ords and those who are agender or non-binary appear according to their residual self-image, which could change over time for those who are genderfluid."
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America


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