Preview #2 - Reality

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:59 pm

HibikiHaniu wrote:One more question.

I know losing all possibilities when transforming in the original Torg.
How about Eternity? When I take a mishap on reconnecting roll, will I lose all possibilities whether i want to keep my reality or get new reality?


If you roll a Mishap when reconnecting, you may transform. If you have Possibilities you:

1. Can choose to transform and keep your Possibilities.
2. Spend all your Possibilities and not transform.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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blackwind1kaze
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby blackwind1kaze » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:03 pm

So if you spend all your possibilities and don't transform, are you still disconnected or do you reconnect? I'm assuming the former rather than the later.
I don't always GM, but when i do, I go out in style :ugeek:

HibikiHaniu
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby HibikiHaniu » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:59 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
HibikiHaniu wrote:I think the coordination around Reality in TORG Eternity is too funny and interested.
I want more information continuously.

BTW, I have some questions about Reality.

1. Are there Reality Bubble and Talisman rule yet?
2. Can PC avoid mishap by any card or other game element?

Please let me know if you can.


1. Reality bubbles aren't in the game anymore. We went back and forth on it but decided that the main reason for reality bubbles (to be able to create contradictions in a Pure Zone) didn't exist, we didn't really need them anymore. Talismans are still in the game. So are hardpoints.

2. Yes, in some circumstances, for some kinds of Mishaps.


Thanks, but I want to know detail about question 2, avoiding a Mishap. In original Torg, any disconnection from contradiction check cannot be avoided by a playing card, such as "second chance."

Can PC play such a card when roll 1 on contradiction check in Eternity?

winstoninabox
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby winstoninabox » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:50 pm

The choices you've made are controversial for a reason.

1. No PPs can be spent when discoed... that's a fundamental change which has metaphysical implicbations that are not good. I hope that this is a decision that is still reversible.

2. Tech "phases in and out" when discoed. We're back to the days of cyborgs dying and sailboats not sailing. It's like the last 2 decades of discussions never happened. I hope that this is a decision that is still "phasing in and out".

3. Psionics is tied to Social. So no low-tech / high psionics cosms? Really? Why is psi a Social construction but not magic? Not tech? I hope that this is a decision that's still reversible.

The controversy is not for the sake of being contrary. The choices made here seem to be very bad for the essence of Torg - characters from any cosm being able to adventure in any kind of cosm imaginable.

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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:55 pm

winstoninabox wrote:The choices you've made are controversial for a reason.

1. No PPs can be spent when discoed... that's a fundamental change which has metaphysical implications that are not good. I hope that this is a decision that is still reversible.



No, that's the rule, and yes it is a significant change. However, we wanted disconnection to have teeth.


2. Tech "phases in and out" when discoed. We're back to the days of cyborgs dying and sailboats not sailing. It's like the last 2 decades of discussions never happened. I hope that this is a decision that is still "phasing in and out".



No, that's how it is. We had a lot of discussion about what to do about passive items. This was the one we as a group chose to go with. We did not ignore 2 decades of discussion on this. I looked up the past discussions, and brought up some of the options, and we ended up going with this one.


3. Psionics is tied to Social. So no low-tech / high psionics cosms? Really? Why is psi a Social construction but not magic? Not tech? I hope that this is a decision that's still reversible.



No, that's how it's going to be. And sure, theoretically you could have a low Tech, high Social cosm with psionics. There aren't any right now but theoretically there could be.

There are two main reasons that we went with Social.

1. We wanted to connect the Social Axiom mechanically with the game, just like spells, miracles, and tech. We didn't like the single social/tech requirement because we thought that more powerful effects should come with higher axiom requirements.

2. Social is all about the interconnectedness of living beings, specifically transforming thought into something useful. Psionics is a natural extension of that idea.


The controversy is not for the sake of being contrary. The choices made here seem to be very bad for the essence of Torg - characters from any cosm being able to adventure in any kind of cosm imaginable.



To be clear, the previews are covering things that we've decided on, and locked in. There's still some playtesting, but it's on the details now.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TorgHacker
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:11 pm

blackwind1kaze wrote:So if you spend all your possibilities and don't transform, are you still disconnected or do you reconnect? I'm assuming the former rather than the later.


You're still disconnected.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

winstoninabox
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby winstoninabox » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:17 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
winstoninabox wrote:The choices you've made are controversial for a reason.

1. No PPs can be spent when discoed... that's a fundamental change which has metaphysical implications that are not good. I hope that this is a decision that is still reversible.



No, that's the rule, and yes it is a significant change. However, we wanted disconnection to have teeth.


Disco having teeth is fine, but why would being disconnected stop one spending PPs? They're not a contradiction, so how does it work in the context of the game?

winstoninabox
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby winstoninabox » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:26 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
winstoninabox wrote:
2. Tech "phases in and out" when discoed. We're back to the days of cyborgs dying and sailboats not sailing. It's like the last 2 decades of discussions never happened. I hope that this is a decision that is still "phasing in and out".



No, that's how it is. We had a lot of discussion about what to do about passive items. This was the one we as a group chose to go with. We did not ignore 2 decades of discussion on this. I looked up the past discussions, and brought up some of the options, and we ended up going with this one.


But how does this solution circumvent the age old problems of cyborgs dying and sails not working? Your reply doesn't answer those questions.

winstoninabox
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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby winstoninabox » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:41 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
winstoninabox wrote:

3. Psionics is tied to Social. So no low-tech / high psionics cosms? Really?



No, that's how it's going to be. And sure, theoretically you could have a low Tech, high Social cosm with psionics. There aren't any right now but theoretically there could be.

There are two main reasons that we went with Social.

1. We wanted to connect the Social Axiom mechanically with the game, just like spells, miracles, and tech. We didn't like the single social/tech requirement because we thought that more powerful effects should come with higher axiom requirements.

2. Social is all about the interconnectedness of living beings, specifically transforming thought into something useful. Psionics is a natural extension of that idea.




Apologies, I meant low Social / high Psionics cosms. You know, like a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. No other SFX system is limited by Social, which allows any type of cosm to be made around that SPX system. Want low Social but high Tech? Okay. Low Social but high Magic? Okay. Low Social but high Miracles? Okay. Basically, you can mix any SFX with any kind of Social... except Psionics.

Linking Psionics to Social stands out an an inexplicable aberration. Any of the other SFX systems could also benefit from the interconnection of living beings, but they're kept separate for a reason.

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Re: Preview #2 - Reality

Postby dehayhurst » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:44 pm

I think it's worth noting that the 'phase out' eliminates bonuses...but that's it. So the cyborg doesn't get his extra armor or his power punch until he reconnects...but he's not rolling on the ground dying or hopping around on one leg either. Reality is in flux, Schrodinger's Cyborg can do any stuff that isn't dependent on either state until he reconnects and goes on his merry way or really blows it and transforms into something that doesn't need cybernetics to live anymore.

Which is a fancy fiction way of getting the simplest game result: you just can't use the stuff that depended on that axiom. That also lets you dodge weird edge cases like "I put a bullet proof vest on a caveman! Even though he disconnects the vest is still there, and as an unliving thing still works." Now reality just sidesteps that whole issue and the vest phases...probably never to be seen again. You also don't have to worry about dragging your Rocket Ranger suit around, it's there but not there until the condition resolves.

YMMV of course.


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