Perk Tree: Gun Kata

User avatar
jhosmer1
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:18 am

Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby jhosmer1 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:54 am

It's an idea for one of my players whose character is from Pan-Pacifica. Comments and Criticisms requested!

Gun Kata *Prereq: Pan-Pacifica, Spirit 8+, at least 3 adds in fire combat
Fire combat becomes Favored when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).

Return Fire *Prereq: Gun Kata
When a foe misses a Gun Kata practitioner with a ranged weapon attack, the practitioner may take one Shock to immediately fire back at that opponent with a pistol.

Guns Akimbo *Prereq: Gun Kata
Long training has lets you target multiple targets. Ignore the first 2 points of the Multi-Target penalty when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).

Statistical Aiming *Prereq: Gun Kata
You have studied numerous statistical analysis of gun combat and can make very good guesses as to your target’s location. You can take one Shock to ignore 2 points of penalties (Concealment, Darkness, Called Shot, etc.) when using a pistol.

Master of the Gun Kata *Prereq: Gun Kata and two other Gun Kata Perks.
You are the Master at using a pistol in combat. You add a Bonus Die of damage to your attacks with a pistol. This stacks with Bonus Dice from good and outstanding results.

User avatar
Gargoyle
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:23 am

jhosmer1 wrote:It's an idea for one of my players whose character is from Pan-Pacifica. Comments and Criticisms requested!

Gun Kata *Prereq: Pan-Pacifica, Spirit 8+, at least 3 adds in fire combat
Fire combat becomes Favored when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).


Are these considered Ki Power perks? I'm assuming so, but I thought I'd ask.

Return Fire *Prereq: Gun Kata
When a foe misses a Gun Kata practitioner with a ranged weapon attack, the practitioner may take one Shock to immediately fire back at that opponent with a pistol.

I would add "once per round the practitioner..." to limit how often this can be done, for balance and speed of play.

Guns Akimbo *Prereq: Gun Kata
Long training has lets you target multiple targets. Ignore the first 2 points of the Multi-Target penalty when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).

I would have them take 1 Shock to do this for consistency with the rest.

Statistical Aiming *Prereq: Gun Kata
You have studied numerous statistical analysis of gun combat and can make very good guesses as to your target’s location. You can take one Shock to ignore 2 points of penalties (Concealment, Darkness, Called Shot, etc.) when using a pistol.


I would clearly specify which penalties instead of "etc"; to me this should work for Concealment, Darkness, or Called Shot penalties, but I'm not sure I'd allow it for Multi-Target penalties and I think it's better to specify than to allow everything since there are likely other penalties you wouldn't want to allow that you may not be thinking of or new penalties introduced later. I'd also rephrase to say "ignore the first 2 points of penalties" because it implies you can spend multiple shock points to ignore huge penalties, and I don't think that's a good idea.

Master of the Gun Kata *Prereq: Gun Kata and two other Gun Kata Perks.
You are the Master at using a pistol in combat. You add a Bonus Die of damage to your attacks with a pistol. This stacks with Bonus Dice from good and outstanding results.


Damage is always nice, but a bit dull and IMO a little off the theme. Given the nature of Gun Kata, maybe the ultimate goal isn't to be a master of a pistol (seems like a gunslinger thing) but to negate your opponent's Dodge? So this perk could read something like:

Master of the Gun Kata *Prereq: Gun Kata and two other Gun Kata Perks.
You are the Master at firing where your opponent will be. When firing a pistol your opponent may not use Dodge adds and must defend with Dexterity alone.

Balance wise, it gives you nothing against foes without Dodge, but a nice +5 or more bonus against the most skilled out there, so I think it's good but not too good, and I feel like it fits Gun Kata better, but the original is ok I guess.

I typically dislike "perk chains" or "trees" but I like that this is a very flat tree, so that's good.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

Blightcrawler
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:04 pm

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby Blightcrawler » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:21 pm

jhosmer1 wrote:Guns Akimbo *Prereq: Gun Kata
Long training has lets you target multiple targets. Ignore the first 2 points of the Multi-Target penalty when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).


Not two pistols? Given the perk name, and the whole theme, this would be a good spot to promote the style of dual-wielding pistols.

Gargoyle wrote:Balance wise, it gives you nothing against foes without Dodge, but a nice +5 or more bonus against the most skilled out there...


Unless they're elves (in which case, the bonus is more complex, and may be detrimental otherwise). A better mod might be a penalty to Dodge adds, or armor piercing. Although I was all for the +1BD at first, I do agree that Gun Kata seems to be more about technique than damage. Another possibility is giving a successful hit on a foe making a Stymied mod (so, even if the damage doesn't beat toughness) or similar. I see a master as more of a master of controlling the battlefield rather than a death machine.

As a player, I would be looking for a perk allowing the practitioner to use Fire Combat instead of Melee Combat for defense, as long as they have a pistol (not rifle, etc) in hand.

User avatar
Gargoyle
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby Gargoyle » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:25 pm

Blightcrawler wrote:
jhosmer1 wrote:Guns Akimbo *Prereq: Gun Kata
Long training has lets you target multiple targets. Ignore the first 2 points of the Multi-Target penalty when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).


Not two pistols? Given the perk name, and the whole theme, this would be a good spot to promote the style of dual-wielding pistols.

Gargoyle wrote:Balance wise, it gives you nothing against foes without Dodge, but a nice +5 or more bonus against the most skilled out there...


Unless they're elves (in which case, the bonus is more complex, and may be detrimental otherwise). A better mod might be a penalty to Dodge adds, or armor piercing. Although I was all for the +1BD at first, I do agree that Gun Kata seems to be more about technique than damage. Another possibility is giving a successful hit on a foe making a Stymied mod (so, even if the damage doesn't beat toughness) or similar. I see a master as more of a master of controlling the battlefield rather than a death machine.


As far as elves, I don't understand the issue, perhaps I'm missing something? They don't make a Dodge test, it's just used as the DN of the attack. Active Defense would work the same. The Stymie idea works well enough for the reasons you mentioned; I'm sort of thinking that there are a lot of effects that already cause conditions though, and I have a harder time imagining the narrative of it, it's rather abstract.

As a player, I would be looking for a perk allowing the practitioner to use Fire Combat instead of Melee Combat for defense, as long as they have a pistol (not rifle, etc) in hand.


That fits Gun Kata well IMO, can visualize that.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

User avatar
jhosmer1
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:18 am

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby jhosmer1 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:26 pm

OK, draft #2, taking into account some of the comments above.

KI POWERS

Gun Kata
*Prereq:
Pan-Pacifica, Spirit 8+, at least 3 adds in fire combat
Fire combat becomes Favored when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).

Pistol Whip
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
When wielding a pistol, you can also take one Shock to use fire combat to defend against melee weapons or unarmed combat.

Return Fire
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
Once per round, when a foe misses a Gun Kata practitioner with a ranged weapon attack, the practitioner may take one Shock to immediately fire back at that opponent with a pistol.

Guns Akimbo
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
Long training has lets you target multiple targets with a gun in each hand. You ignore the first 2 points of the Multi-Target penalty when using two pistols.

Statistical Aiming
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
You have studied numerous statistical analysis of gun combat and can make very good guesses as to your target’s location. You can take one Shock to ignore the first 2 points of penalties from Concealment, Darkness, or Range when using a pistol.

Killer
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
Once per round, you can spend three Shock to add a Bonus Die of damage to your attacks with a pistol. This stacks with Bonus Dice from good and outstanding results.

Master of the Gun Kata
*Prereq:
Beta Clearance, Gun Kata and two other Gun Kata Perks.
You are the Master at using a pistol in combat. Once per Act, you can spend 5 Shock to completely ignore multi-target penalties. You must have a line of sight to each target and cannot hit more targets than you have ammunition.

The last one might be too powerful, but I think John Woo would approve.

User avatar
Gargoyle
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby Gargoyle » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:40 pm

jhosmer1 wrote:OK, draft #2, taking into account some of the comments above.

KI POWERS

Gun Kata
*Prereq:
Pan-Pacifica, Spirit 8+, at least 3 adds in fire combat
Fire combat becomes Favored when using a pistol (not a rifle, submachine gun, etc.).

Pistol Whip
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
When wielding a pistol, you can also take one Shock to use fire combat to defend against melee weapons or unarmed combat.

Return Fire
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
Once per round, when a foe misses a Gun Kata practitioner with a ranged weapon attack, the practitioner may take one Shock to immediately fire back at that opponent with a pistol.

Guns Akimbo
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
Long training has lets you target multiple targets with a gun in each hand. You ignore the first 2 points of the Multi-Target penalty when using two pistols.

Statistical Aiming
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
You have studied numerous statistical analysis of gun combat and can make very good guesses as to your target’s location. You can take one Shock to ignore the first 2 points of penalties from Concealment, Darkness, or Range when using a pistol.

Killer
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
Once per round, you can spend three Shock to add a Bonus Die of damage to your attacks with a pistol. This stacks with Bonus Dice from good and outstanding results.

Master of the Gun Kata
*Prereq:
Beta Clearance, Gun Kata and two other Gun Kata Perks.
You are the Master at using a pistol in combat. Once per Act, you can spend 5 Shock to completely ignore multi-target penalties. You must have a line of sight to each target and cannot hit more targets than you have ammunition.

The last one might be too powerful, but I think John Woo would approve.


On Master of the Gun Kata,it's a bit wonky because you've already got Guns Akimbo that sort of does a lesser version of it, but the mechanics are different. It makes it difficult to remember at the table, and I think I agree that eliminating all the multi-target penalties might be too good in certain situations; it's fine for a room of mooks, but in the less common situation of a room full of ravagons, or an army of mooks (and a big magazine)...it could be OP even once per Act or exploitable. To bring the the two perks closer together mechanic wise, and so they can use their very expensive beta level perk more often, how about adding a limit to it, without nerfing it too badly:

Guns Akimbo
*Prereq:
Gun Kata
Long training has lets you target multiple targets with a gun in each hand. You can spend 2 Shock to ignore the first two points of the Multi-Target penalty when using two pistols.

Master of the Gun Kata
*Prereq:
Beta Clearance, Gun Kata, Guns Akimbo
You are the Master at using a pistol in combat. Once per Scene, you can take 6 Shock or one non-lethal wound to ignore the first six points of the Multi-Target penalty when using two pistols. You must have a line of sight to each target and cannot hit more targets than you have ammunition.

Since Shock can be negated easily, especially in Pan-Pacifica due to the Law of Tenacity, I think it's good to encourage them to take it to tempt them to take on Wounds, IMO, but also First Aid and some items can get rid of it easy enough, and I think ki powers should require spending it as part of their theme, though of course we don't know if they all will.
"That old chestnut?"

Gargoyle

User avatar
ShirtlessOBrien
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:55 pm

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:46 pm

jhosmer1 wrote:
Master of the Gun Kata
*Prereq:
Beta Clearance, Gun Kata and two other Gun Kata Perks.
You are the Master at using a pistol in combat. Once per Act, you can spend 5 Shock to completely ignore multi-target penalties. You must have a line of sight to each target and cannot hit more targets than you have ammunition.

The last one might be too powerful, but I think John Woo would approve.


I think the problem is that there is no reason not to make this your first move in literally every combat with a significant number of mooks, especially since it's only a DC10 Healing miracle to restore all Shock damage.

These kinds of powers work well at representing a character like John Preston who is an invincible murder machine who can single-handedly destroy a totalitarian regime just by walking forward and shooting everything that gets in his way. In a multiplayer rpg though every character needs a chance to shine and having a power that lets you pwn entire combats at will is massively spotlight-hogging.

utsukushi
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby utsukushi » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:06 am

So, this whole concept is entirely copying McCree's Deadeye ultimate from Overwatch. I've been kind of statting the OW characters in TorgE for my kids anyway (because they're totally into Overwatch and it seemed like a good bridge to hook them on Torg) so I was going to be doing this soon anyway, and I think it may actually work for Master of the Gun Kata.

If I were going to stat Deadeye, I would say it requires a round of Aiming (a solid limit, but that also gives +4), but then allows a Called Shot to the Head (a -4 penalty) on all enemies in line of sight (which is up to 6, so potentially another -10 in Multi-Targeting). In Overwatch, this hits automatically on anyone who doesn't get out of the way during that round of aiming, but adjusting for the game, you're just ignoring the 10 points of Multi-Targeting. Obviously you're still going to have to roll to hit.

The 10-point cap fits nicely with a six-gun theme. I'm not sure if that's entirely appropriate for someone from Pan-Pacifica, but I do think it gets a lot of the feeling for this concept. Being able to ignore 10 points of Multi-Targeting is pretty significant without just meaning you can mow down an entire hoard in one round; requiring the round of Aiming but then requiring that to be balanced as a Called Shot means you don't have to track those numbers either, since they wash, but gives it a nice damage bonus (+4) AND very likely makes it Armor Piercing in many cases... which I don't think is OP because anybody can do that part. That round of aiming, though, also makes it a two-round ability, which further stops it from being something you can just do before anybody else can act, as well as making it a little more distinct from Guns Akimbo.

Throw in a limit that you can't take damage while Aiming, and... for 6 Shock, I think that might work?

Much as I would be tempted, I would not actually require the character to call out, "It's High Noon!" during the Aiming Round. If you don't mind a bit of extra mental-space, though, I do think it would be both thematically appropriate and better balanced to say it can't be done from Concealment. That makes the "not taking damage" while aiming harder (unless you start it in a round where the Heroes went second, and flip a card letting you go first in the next, in which case, lucky you!), but that is image I have of this kind of gunslinger. They step out, size up the room, and then... blamblamblamblam!


...On another note, I would change Statistical Aiming so that for one Shock per ally you're avoiding, you can ignore the Firing Into Melee rules. It would expressly stack with any other Gun Kata moves.

ProfessorK
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:21 pm

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby ProfessorK » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:51 pm

Just a comment... if this is the Gun Kata as created by the movie Equilibrium, then the focus on attack is odd as the use of the Kata in that movie was primarily defensive.

User avatar
jhosmer1
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:18 am

Re: Perk Tree: Gun Kata

Postby jhosmer1 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:23 pm

ProfessorK wrote:Just a comment... if this is the Gun Kata as created by the movie Equilibrium, then the focus on attack is odd as the use of the Kata in that movie was primarily defensive.


Well, it's TORG. For a game with an option called "Active Defense," most players seem to like to hit things.

:lol:


Return to “Tangents and Miscellany (TORG)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests