Errata/Faq thread

Ilias Bethomael
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:30 am

Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:23 am

ZombieAcePilot wrote:Attacking is a test as written in the current rules. Per pg 50 :
Note: You do not use a Wrath Dice when making a roll (see the glossary on page 49)—only during tests!


Per the glossary on pg 49 a roll is:
Roll: Like a test, this is when you must roll a number of dice and either consult a chart (such as a d3, d6, or d66 roll) or count icons (such as when making a Soak roll). Unlike tests, rolls do not have a DN.


Wrath dice are used during tests. A wrath die is included in attacks. Attacks have a DN. All of these things point to attacks being tests, which are then subject to all the normal rules for tests.


Fair point
Courage and Honour!

Radwraith
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Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby Radwraith » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:45 pm

warhammerfrpgm wrote:
Radwraith wrote:The way you handle long range combat is fairly straightforward: The Gm determines at what range the encounter starts and what conditions exist. (Enemy in cover, mines, etc.) since a character can typically cover about 18-24 M per round at a sprint. so divide your range into 20m range bands. Players may either conduct normal actions in their current range band (Crouch behind cover, shoot, or whatever.) or they may choose to close/open a range band. (Or more if the players have a jumpack or are mounted in a vehicle!) Now you don't need a "Big complicated map", you just need a piece of loose leaf paper to track the groups range from each other. Once two groups (Or even individual character's) enter the same range band THEN you go to your battlemap. (if a 20x20 battlemap isn't too much for ya!) Of course the Gm will have to stipulate things like obscurement and line of sight to decide if shots are even possible. But that's their job anyway!



This. All of This. I love every bit of the 20m increments. especially with me doing a group of armoured cavalry troopers. I hadn't figured out how I was going to do it to make it super easy. It had been a long time since I had a d&d elven long range sniper to GM for.


Thanks for the vote of confidence! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one still thinking about this! In light of US providing an official answer as to why the ranges are so short (Which I think was a poor decision btw!) I propose the following compromise: The ranges listed for weapons assume that the character is firing on the move. (Ie taking a move action then firing.). Alternatively, when a character chooses to take a "Brace" action with either a basic or heavy weapon, the base range of said weapon is doubled. Pistol Shotgun and flamer type weapons do not get this benefit.

This corrects the range problem but forces characters engaging at such ranges to be fairly static. (Which is true IRL by the way!) What do you guys think?

warhammerfrpgm
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Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:01 pm

Radwraith wrote:
warhammerfrpgm wrote:
Radwraith wrote:The way you handle long range combat is fairly straightforward: The Gm determines at what range the encounter starts and what conditions exist. (Enemy in cover, mines, etc.) since a character can typically cover about 18-24 M per round at a sprint. so divide your range into 20m range bands. Players may either conduct normal actions in their current range band (Crouch behind cover, shoot, or whatever.) or they may choose to close/open a range band. (Or more if the players have a jumpack or are mounted in a vehicle!) Now you don't need a "Big complicated map", you just need a piece of loose leaf paper to track the groups range from each other. Once two groups (Or even individual character's) enter the same range band THEN you go to your battlemap. (if a 20x20 battlemap isn't too much for ya!) Of course the Gm will have to stipulate things like obscurement and line of sight to decide if shots are even possible. But that's their job anyway!



This. All of This. I love every bit of the 20m increments. especially with me doing a group of armoured cavalry troopers. I hadn't figured out how I was going to do it to make it super easy. It had been a long time since I had a d&d elven long range sniper to GM for.


Thanks for the vote of confidence! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one still thinking about this! In light of US providing an official answer as to why the ranges are so short (Which I think was a poor decision btw!) I propose the following compromise: The ranges listed for weapons assume that the character is firing on the move. (Ie taking a move action then firing.). Alternatively, when a character chooses to take a "Brace" action with either a basic or heavy weapon, the base range of said weapon is doubled. Pistol Shotgun and flamer type weapons do not get this benefit.

This corrects the range problem but forces characters engaging at such ranges to be fairly static. (Which is true IRL by the way!) What do you guys think?



i'm just doubling all the ranges since i couldn't see the official dev response. image didn't load. so the way i look at it for anything not pistols, shotguns, and flamers the range listed for the game is a short range(+1d), double that for standard(no penalty), double standard for long range(+2 DN), and double long for extreme range (+6DN). for a lasgun it goes to 48m/96m/192m/384m. 384m away is over a 1000 ft. nothing i would ever want to try with a rifle but i imagine there are people out there that are more than capable of shooting an m4, m16, or ak47 with such accuracy at distance.

I am not worried about the additional ranges as this means that a sniper shooting at 560m for a long las is freaking scary. puts us at over 1700 ft. for roughly a third of a mile. there are lots of snipers with traditional long range sniper weapons with a decent scope that would make that shot. Given that pistols can have decent range i might increase their range with aim. but I am still highly undecided.

Personally I am doing this as my campaign is focused on around armoured cavalry. so the party is going to have a lot of wide open fights for a few encounters. Those ranges will matter since its silly that the multi laser can't shoot anything from more than 70m. being in america i know that translates to 220ft roughly or just over 70 yards. yeah. vehicle mounted gun can't shoot without a penalty for beyond a football field. I even went and bought the new Ork SpeedFreaks set to give my party some awesome entertaining ork encounters. 6 Orks on bike including a nob. maybe even the new squig launcher trukk. Yes, oh yes. we will have orks launching squigs at the party. i expect the entire fight to be hilarious.

gribble
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Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby gribble » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:25 am

warhammerfrpgm wrote:i'm just doubling all the ranges since i couldn't see the official dev response. image didn't load. so the way i look at it for anything not pistols, shotguns, and flamers the range listed for the game is a short range(+1d), double that for standard(no penalty), double standard for long range(+2 DN), and double long for extreme range (+6DN).

I would be very careful about making such a change for the sake of "realism". Remember, this is a game, not a reality simulator. It is designed to model a world where the best strategy is to drive forward in a tank to hit your opponent with your sword!

Having actually played a couple of sessions, movement in the game feels slow against ranged weapons already. At a typical movement speed of 6, an enemy firing from maximum "normal" range of 24 for a lasgun already has at least 2 rounds before a melee oriented character can close with them (sprint, then charge). And that is assuming they can draw a straight line on the opponent, don't need to hide behind cover (which is unlikely if they're facing down ranged attackers) and the enemy isn't moving back to counteract them. So in all likelihood it can take them 3 rounds or more to close.

This can already be really frustrating for melee oriented characters - doubling the ranges would make it even worse. Imagine a combat where your first 4-6 rounds of actions are "I close with the enemy" (all the time while under fire)... and by the time they get there, the ranged attackers in the party would have already taken out the enemy. While it might be "realistic" it certainly wouldn't be much fun as a player! And I'd argue that neutering melee combat to the point of being ineffective is much more against the 40k "reality" than shorter weapon ranges.

If you're going to make a change like this, I'd simply say 1m = 2m in your head. Anywhere the rules say 1m, substitute 2m. Of course, then you'll potentially run into other "reality" issues like how far people can move and jump...

TL:DR I agree with the choices made by US devs. From a gameplay perspective, I think doubling the "normal" range of weapons (without other changes) would be a mistake.

warhammerfrpgm
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Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:53 am

gribble wrote:
warhammerfrpgm wrote:i'm just doubling all the ranges since i couldn't see the official dev response. image didn't load. so the way i look at it for anything not pistols, shotguns, and flamers the range listed for the game is a short range(+1d), double that for standard(no penalty), double standard for long range(+2 DN), and double long for extreme range (+6DN).

I would be very careful about making such a change for the sake of "realism". Remember, this is a game, not a reality simulator. It is designed to model a world where the best strategy is to drive forward in a tank to hit your opponent with your sword!

Having actually played a couple of sessions, movement in the game feels slow against ranged weapons already. At a typical movement speed of 6, an enemy firing from maximum "normal" range of 24 for a lasgun already has at least 2 rounds before a melee oriented character can close with them (sprint, then charge). And that is assuming they can draw a straight line on the opponent, don't need to hide behind cover (which is unlikely if they're facing down ranged attackers) and the enemy isn't moving back to counteract them. So in all likelihood it can take them 3 rounds or more to close.

This can already be really frustrating for melee oriented characters - doubling the ranges would make it even worse. Imagine a combat where your first 4-6 rounds of actions are "I close with the enemy" (all the time while under fire)... and by the time they get there, the ranged attackers in the party would have already taken out the enemy. While it might be "realistic" it certainly wouldn't be much fun as a player! And I'd argue that neutering melee combat to the point of being ineffective is much more against the 40k "reality" than shorter weapon ranges.

If you're going to make a change like this, I'd simply say 1m = 2m in your head. Anywhere the rules say 1m, substitute 2m. Of course, then you'll potentially run into other "reality" issues like how far people can move and jump...

TL:DR I agree with the choices made by US devs. From a gameplay perspective, I think doubling the "normal" range of weapons (without other changes) would be a mistake.


I see your argument, but I would enjoy testing the longer ranges. as we don't really have any serious melee characters in the party. i did this by design. they are a weapon specialist squad, Chimera Vehicle Crew, the Chimera(almost a character in its own right with how important it is when it is in use.) and a couple of sisters(1 hospitaller and 1 battle((closest thing to a melee character))) I have it set up that they will either be in situations that they have lots of ranged opportunity or when they are stuck in close quarters by design. and last i checked our modern military doesn't normally want to be in close combat. last i checked we shoot stuff, or bomb stuff, or shoot stuff even more. so me wanting some realism with weapon ranges and greater vehicle speeds(which when in a vehicle balance out the range increases). granted this makes the footslogging melee character feel like an ignored threat. hmm. sounds about right.

gribble
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Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby gribble » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:28 pm

warhammerfrpgm wrote:and last i checked our modern military doesn't normally want to be in close combat. last i checked we shoot stuff, or bomb stuff, or shoot stuff even more. so me wanting some realism with weapon ranges and greater vehicle speeds(which when in a vehicle balance out the range increases). granted this makes the footslogging melee character feel like an ignored threat. hmm. sounds about right.

As I said in the other thread, each to their own.

Though I will point out again that the game isn't trying to simulate "modern military", it's trying to simulate 40k military. For that purpose, melee should be a credible threat, if not a bigger danger than ranged attacks. Making the "footslogging melee character feel like an ignored threat" would make the game feel like not-40k to me... much more so than shorter weapon ranges does!

Also, you have to consider opponents like tyranids and orks, which have little or no ranged threat... I certainly wouldn't want to turn those opponents into jokes that run fruitlessly at the PCs for several turns while being gunned down in droves...

Soviet Conscript

Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby Soviet Conscript » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:11 am

gribble wrote:the game isn't trying to simulate "modern military", it's trying to simulate 40k military. For that purpose

For that purpose isn't it logical to look into actual WH40K lore? And than find out that humble lasguns are, for example, perfectly capable of effectively killing opponents while shooting at them from ranges of up to 300-500 meters.
500 meters distance was referenced in "Gaunt Ghosts: Nercopolis" when engaging Ferrozoican PDF troopers that fell to Chaos while 300 meters distance was referenced in "Fifteen Hours" when guardsmen were fighting ork boyz.
Making the "footslogging melee character feel like an ignored threat"

Well, a single human opponent with just melee weapon and flak armour in battlefield condition would be an irrelevant threat in 40K realities.
But there are ....other issues that should be taken into account.
1) Some melee combat specialist, like the ones from Necromunda's underhive gang wars do not operate in battlefield conditions, instead they use their deadly skills when fighting in the claustrophobic confines of the bowels of the hive city. With maze of interlocking corridors most likely denying the advantage of long range firearms while simultatniously provide opportunities to set vicious traps and ambushes upon the enemy.
2) Some of the melee weapons specialists either have bodies that are WAY more resilient to damage and wounds than normal humans (like the ork boyz do, for example), or are clad in armour that allows them to wade through torrent of usual small-arms fire without incident or sport a combination of both. Such melee specialists often do also employ means to cover open field more easily - like the Space Marine assault squads sporting the jump packs or Eldar howling banshees make use of specially designed sonic weapons, designed to disorient or outright paralyze their enemies.
3) And in some cases there is a combination of strength in numbers and ignoring battlefield casualties. Like than during the battle for Alaric Prime (Sanctus Reach: The Red Waagh campaign book) Cadian Astra Militatum infantry simply gunned down advancing ork boyz with well aimed volleys of lasgun fire, but the greenskins just kept coming and coming...
opponents like tyranids and orks, which have little or no ranged threat... I certainly wouldn't want to turn those opponents into jokes that run fruitlessly at the PCs for several turns while being gunned down in droves...

Well, ork boyz, as I mentioned earlier have a body structure, allowing them to literally shrug off bullet and laser impacts that would instantly kill a human on spot.
Tyranids... there are two cases here actually.
Larger beasts are generally resilient to damage and armoured.
Lesser beasts are usually actually gunned down in droves. However, that is not a problem to the respective hive fleet, since suich creatures are meant to overwhelm the opponent through sheer numbers superiority. For example, smaller breed of tyranids (hormogaunts and so on) were gunned down in droves by the Astra Militarum with lasgun and heavy bolter fire while defending Tyran (info from Codex: Tyranids, 8-th edition). However it was soon realised, to the horror of local Imperial Guard commanders, that there are actually way more tyranid beasts, then there are heavy bolter ammo and lasgun charge packs available.....

gribble
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Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby gribble » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:25 am

Soviet Conscript wrote:For that purpose isn't it logical to look into actual WH40K lore? And than find out that humble lasguns are, for example, perfectly capable of effectively killing opponents while shooting at them from ranges of up to 300-500 meters.

Sure... there have been instances of this occurring in the lore. But how often do the stories show the protagonists killing all opponents from hundreds of metres away and going home safely? Versus how often do the stories show the protagonists involved in vicious close range struggles?
My comment was in response to a post highlighting how the W&G rules don't mesh well with modern military tactics. It wasn't meant to say that long range kills don't happen in the 40k lore, but rather than the vast majority of the 40k lore shows a mixture of ranged and close combat - something that simply doesn't happen much in modern military engagements. From what I've seen in actual play, doubling the range of weapons in W&G will result in pretty much zero effective melee combat, and that to me isn't true to the lore of 40k (and much less true to the lore than artificially shortening the ranges of the most long range weapons).

Soviet Conscript wrote:Well, a single human opponent with just melee weapon and flak armour in battlefield condition would be an irrelevant threat in 40K realities.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/As ... Marbo-2018

Soviet Conscript wrote:Well, ork boyz, as I mentioned earlier have a body structure, allowing them to literally shrug off bullet and laser impacts that would instantly kill a human on spot.
Tyranids... there are two cases here actually.
Larger beasts are generally resilient to damage and armoured.

This seems like you're agreeing with me? Because in the lore, this should certainly be the case. But if you double the weapon ranges in W&G, and these foes have to charge fruitlessly at opponents for 4-6 rounds, I guarantee you it won't be the case in W&G. They will be cut to ribbons before they *ever* reach melee, unless the opponents are all but immune to the PCs weapons (in which case, you'll have 4-6 rounds of pointless combat, instead of 2-3, before the PCs die).

quindraco
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Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby quindraco » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:32 am

gribble wrote:This seems like you're agreeing with me? Because in the lore, this should certainly be the case. But if you double the weapon ranges in W&G, and these foes have to charge fruitlessly at opponents for 4-6 rounds, I guarantee you it won't be the case in W&G. They will be cut to ribbons before they *ever* reach melee, unless the opponents are all but immune to the PCs weapons (in which case, you'll have 4-6 rounds of pointless combat, instead of 2-3, before the PCs die).


Yeah, doubling all gun ranges relative to the core rules will mean needing to provide love to anything melee-centric at the same time if you want them to remain a serious threat (although at some point you'll run up against the fact that melee honestly DOESN'T have a business being a serious threat in 40k, and it's been maintained as such for fun on the table, not for consistency in the fluff). One of the more appropriate ways to do this, I think, would be to give Orks a serious discount on the True Grit talent.

Soviet Conscript

Re: Errata/Faq thread

Postby Soviet Conscript » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:31 am

gribble wrote:will result in pretty much zero effective melee combat, and that to me isn't true to the lore of 40k

And than I'll point out again - under what circumstances and with what parties present. For the humble Imperial Guard infantry troops - they are not actually meant to go into melee combat under normal battlefield condition. And if they found themselves into such - usually something go very wrong and they are about to get slaughtered to a man. That's how it is said as per Codex: Astra Militarum, 8-th edition.
However, that's with the normal battlefield conditions. But than we go into city fighting and find out that "getting close and personal" with the enemy becomes much more likely.
There are also melee-oriented specialists that are delibaretely equipped with armour strong enough to resist regular small-arms fire and with means to actually traverse the battlefield very quickly. One moment these Space marine assault squad/Chaos raptors/Ork storm boyz are couple of hundred meters down range - the next they are descending right onto your trenches with their weapons ready for combat. Not to mention assault terminators just teleporting right to your trenches and starting their gruesome "handiwork"....
PS: And yes - you mentioned Sly Marbo. Well - another possibility for melee combat specialists - using covert tactics and stealth, working behind enemy lines to sabotage their war effort.
They will be cut to ribbons before they *ever* reach melee, unless the opponents are all but immune to the PCs weapons (in which case, you'll have 4-6 rounds of pointless combat, instead of 2-3, before the PCs die).

Per example, an Ork boy per NPCs section of W&G rulebook has a total resilience of 10. A lasgun, laspistol and autogun have 7+1ED damage with AP0. Surely, some ork boyz would be gunned down, but, suprise, ork boyz usually come in great mobs, and often actually are way more numerous than Imperial guardsman opposing them.
A bolter with 10+1ED AP 0 Brutal is more likely to cut greenskins to ribbons, but hey, that gun shoots 20mm mass-reactive armour piercing shells that explode once pierced their targets (that means inside the target). Bolters are meant to cut orks to ribbons - and the "we are outnumbered" are WAY more prominent in such cases.


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