Rogue Trader Tier

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Aenno
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Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Aenno » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:13 am

In rulebook Rogue Trader put into 2nd Tier (same for Sancionite Psyker or Space Marine Scout), but they have Imperial Frigate as a part of starting gear (so it's acting Trader, not some person from dynasty). Aren't they fit 3rd Tier at least?

UPD: Also Tech-Priests are Tier 3, and Hereteks are Tier 2. Shouldn't TP be Tier 2 as well?
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

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WhiteKnight416
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby WhiteKnight416 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:52 am

The argument has been made the TP has a lot of influence and authority that the Heretek doesn't which could explain the tier difference. It could also be errata.

The Rogue Trader tier has been brought up before, the warrant of trade is the real power, the voidship is very cool but depending on the campaign all it may amount to is a convenient transport and base of operations for the PCs.

Depending on the campaign something else might serve the same purpose, a fortress monetary, watch station or strike cruiser operated by NPCs in an Astartes campaign, a voidship or place accessible by the Webway for an Eldar game.

A warrant of trade is pretty damn powerful, RP wise, its not impervious, it can be abused and the Inquisition among others can come down hard on PCs that push it too far.

A ship can also be careful there's talents and never doubt the ability of PCs to raise hell being creative with what a GM might think they've limited the effects of.

Ultimately it probably wouldn't hurt to raise the Rogue trader to at least Tier 3 and perhaps raise the archetype cost.

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Aenno
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Aenno » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:52 am

WhiteKnight416 wrote:The argument has been made the TP has a lot of influence and authority that the Heretek doesn't which could explain the tier difference. It could also be errata.

If it's in "Heretek Tier" post, it was my argument. :)

Still about RT.
He have Voidship and right to use voidship as he sees fit in the beginning of the game. What does that mean?
  • That mean that PCs always have conventional transport to and, especially, from situation, until their enemies have some kind of space warfare options, like orbital defences or their own spacefleet. Looking into table, in Tier 2 it's people like Sanctionite Psyker, Sister of Battle, Tempestus Scion, Space Marine Scout, and other people like this, they're competent, sure; but they're not people who can always can select their missions and go in or out. When you're playing Space Marine Tactical Squad campaign, their ship is probably managed by NPCs, and I believe it's not a position for Tactical Squad sergeant; and you would take orders where ship will be steered from higher orders. If 1st-2nd Tier (and even 3rd Tier, actually) character would have a mobile base, it would usually be NPC-controlled base with somebody else in command of this base.
  • Cite from Rulebook: Each vessel is a nation unto itself owing fealty to its commanding officer, andthrough its commanding officer owing fealty to greater powers, be they the Lord Admiral of the Imperial Navy, a Warboss, or a Daemon Prince. Essentially, Rogue Trader have... This rulebook doesn't give crew numbers, but Lexicanum (Rogue Trader book) gives 26K crew for Sword frigate, who capitan can use as he sees fit. No way Tempestus Scion, Sanctionite Psyker or Space Marine Scout has same power.
  • Frigate isn't enough to do Exterminatus, but it's powerful for orbital bombardment. They can't be used for bombardment in ground combat, sure. I'm not sure how do you supposed to calculate orbital bombardment (let's say against genestealer-infected city or planetary bunker), but it's obviously massive. No other character in Tier 2 have same firepower in his absolute disposal.
  • To represent this power RTs are quite powerful in Imperium fluff-wise. They're orbiting in circles where Governors, Inquisitors and Generals are. This isn't even Tier 3, it's Tier 4 Archetypes (well, we have one - Inquisitor). Tier 3 is very competenet people, sure; but they're under command of characters of Tier 4. Look what Han Solo (Tier 3 - Desperado, who is playing on interplanetary crime scene under powerful crime boss until classical movies) did with 2-crew Millenium Falcon. For the beginning he was able to run from Jabba when he wanted. Imagine what could he do with Imperial Star Destroyer on his full command.
  • If you check Tier descriptions, ability to negotiate with governors from the position of power (and Rogue Trader, who have a ship which can level cities, can do it!), transform policial climate, trigger cultural changes is defining features of Tier 3.
  • When listing powers to limit Rogue Trader, there is listed Inquisition. So you need power of Tier 4 to limit this character.

So I'd say Rogue Trader with a void ship is 3rd Tier archetype as a bare minimum, as stories where ship is used would be at least 3rd Tier, and it actually can be argued they're Tier 4.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

BRKNdevil
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby BRKNdevil » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:16 pm

The most amusing thing I find about this conversation is that we are ignoring that a Rogue Trader at Tier 2 as it is currently can have a Power Sword, a Plasma Pistol and be using Light Power Armour
Also, they can spend 5BP more using the rules in Select Wargear section to grab a Inferno Pistol instead of a Plasma Pistol
Like just no, just no at Tier 2

Radwraith
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Radwraith » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:55 pm

I would agree with the RT being at least tier 3 and likely tie 4 for Traders who have a Cruiser. In fluff, Rogue traders have roughly the same power level as Inquisitors or Space Marine Chapter masters! Their only real limits are when they operate within defined imperial space. THEN they would come under the purview of the Inquisition and VERY FEW others! 8-)

schnickers
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby schnickers » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:05 am

BRKNdevil wrote:The most amusing thing I find about this conversation is that we are ignoring that a Rogue Trader at Tier 2 as it is currently can have a Power Sword, a Plasma Pistol and be using Light Power Armour
Also, they can spend 5BP more using the rules in Select Wargear section to grab a Inferno Pistol instead of a Plasma Pistol
Like just no, just no at Tier 2


I also find this more powerfull than the Voidship.

Imo, playing a Rogue Trader should be part of the campaign setting and Theme and thus, either mandatory or forbidden (exceptions possible) defined by the GM.


A question regarding his wargear. It states TIER+4, Is TIER the creation Tier (thus 2) or the (potentially ascended) Campaign Tier (e.g. 3)? Rules as I read them its Creation Tier (2) but then they could just have written value 6 (2+4).

BRKNdevil
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby BRKNdevil » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:26 am

It is indeed the tier of the campaign. Most average around tier +3 for main weapon and such from when it is naturally listed, but the Rogue Trader is like nope, I'm rich and I adjust. Honestly, more of them should. Made some homebrew with that in mind, posted it in the Misc section that someone else started as i wait for the Game Edits and fixes to come out

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Aenno
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Aenno » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:13 am

BRKNdevil wrote:The most amusing thing I find about this conversation is that we are ignoring that a Rogue Trader at Tier 2 as it is currently can have a Power Sword, a Plasma Pistol and be using Light Power Armour
Also, they can spend 5BP more using the rules in Select Wargear section to grab a Inferno Pistol instead of a Plasma Pistol
Like just no, just no at Tier 2

Well, that's true. I just... well, Eldar Ranger archetype has Value 7 weapon on Tier 2, and Eldar Corsair has Value 6 Rare weapon (same as Power Sword). So I believed this can be overlooked; after all, getting gear never was a hard point in WH40K campaigns I played.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

BRKNdevil
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby BRKNdevil » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:28 pm

Aenno wrote:Well, that's true. I just... well, Eldar Ranger archetype has Value 7 weapon on Tier 2, and Eldar Corsair has Value 6 Rare weapon (same as Power Sword). So I believed this can be overlooked; after all, getting gear never was a hard point in WH40K campaigns I played.


Okay, that doesn't even match there design scheme or the guidelines they have for the Selecting Wargear section.

I can understand that the Lasblaster has a similar profile as the lasgun and that the Eldar are supposed to have higher tech and thus higher rarity.

But the Guidelines they have placed is that if the Primary uses one type of skill roll, the secondary is supposed to use the other.

So it should probably have been a Knife and it is just one more oversight like the Rogue Trader is.

Ditto on Ranger and having a sniper rifle and same with the issue with the guidelines

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Aenno
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Aenno » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:32 pm

BRKNdevil wrote:But the Guidelines they have placed is that if the Primary uses one type of skill roll, the secondary is supposed to use the other.


Core Book, p. 275 wrote:Pistol
Pistols are quickly drawn and relatively easy to wield in close quarters. A pistol can be fired while engaged in close combat using the Weapon Skill in place of the Ballistic Skill.

Guidelines are crackling, but, I believe, can be seen as unbroken yet.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.


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