Rogue Trader Tier

Sardonis
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Sardonis » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:16 pm

So, I have just finished reading the book and am starting my first campaign and, as I intend to have one of my players be a Rogue Trader, this has been on the forefront of my mind for the last few days. As such, I'd like to mention 2 topics on this issue:

1. After reading the book, it reminded me a lot of L5R (the original, great game, not the current aberration) in having a very strong core with systems that could use some fine tuning. To be clear, I really liked the system and its proposal, I just believe that it could have used more playtesting and editing. In this regard, I believe that possibly their worst mistake was the Tier for Rogue Traders. A Rogue Trader, in any campaign not absolutely railroaded by the GM, is one of the strongest characters a player may have; a mixture of noble scion, general and admiral, with an effective army at their disposal. Rogue Traders, unless heavily downgraded from the lore, and with extensive restrictions from the GM, should be at least Tier 3, if not 4.

2. With that said, I would like to propose that we create an errata for the archetype, effectively making a community version for it at Tier 3. However, being still quite new to the system, I'm not sure if I'm up to the task. How about we join forces to do so? I am honestly thinking about just giving it +1 Influence and Wealth and jumping it to Tier 3.

Any thoughts?

Sardonis
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Sardonis » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:16 pm

Aenno wrote:
WhiteKnight416 wrote:The argument has been made the TP has a lot of influence and authority that the Heretek doesn't which could explain the tier difference. It could also be errata.

If it's in "Heretek Tier" post, it was my argument. :)

Still about RT.
He have Voidship and right to use voidship as he sees fit in the beginning of the game. What does that mean?
  • That mean that PCs always have conventional transport to and, especially, from situation, until their enemies have some kind of space warfare options, like orbital defences or their own spacefleet. Looking into table, in Tier 2 it's people like Sanctionite Psyker, Sister of Battle, Tempestus Scion, Space Marine Scout, and other people like this, they're competent, sure; but they're not people who can always can select their missions and go in or out. When you're playing Space Marine Tactical Squad campaign, their ship is probably managed by NPCs, and I believe it's not a position for Tactical Squad sergeant; and you would take orders where ship will be steered from higher orders. If 1st-2nd Tier (and even 3rd Tier, actually) character would have a mobile base, it would usually be NPC-controlled base with somebody else in command of this base.
  • Cite from Rulebook: Each vessel is a nation unto itself owing fealty to its commanding officer, andthrough its commanding officer owing fealty to greater powers, be they the Lord Admiral of the Imperial Navy, a Warboss, or a Daemon Prince. Essentially, Rogue Trader have... This rulebook doesn't give crew numbers, but Lexicanum (Rogue Trader book) gives 26K crew for Sword frigate, who capitan can use as he sees fit. No way Tempestus Scion, Sanctionite Psyker or Space Marine Scout has same power.
  • Frigate isn't enough to do Exterminatus, but it's powerful for orbital bombardment. They can't be used for bombardment in ground combat, sure. I'm not sure how do you supposed to calculate orbital bombardment (let's say against genestealer-infected city or planetary bunker), but it's obviously massive. No other character in Tier 2 have same firepower in his absolute disposal.
  • To represent this power RTs are quite powerful in Imperium fluff-wise. They're orbiting in circles where Governors, Inquisitors and Generals are. This isn't even Tier 3, it's Tier 4 Archetypes (well, we have one - Inquisitor). Tier 3 is very competenet people, sure; but they're under command of characters of Tier 4. Look what Han Solo (Tier 3 - Desperado, who is playing on interplanetary crime scene under powerful crime boss until classical movies) did with 2-crew Millenium Falcon. For the beginning he was able to run from Jabba when he wanted. Imagine what could he do with Imperial Star Destroyer on his full command.
  • If you check Tier descriptions, ability to negotiate with governors from the position of power (and Rogue Trader, who have a ship which can level cities, can do it!), transform policial climate, trigger cultural changes is defining features of Tier 3.
  • When listing powers to limit Rogue Trader, there is listed Inquisition. So you need power of Tier 4 to limit this character.

So I'd say Rogue Trader with a void ship is 3rd Tier archetype as a bare minimum, as stories where ship is used would be at least 3rd Tier, and it actually can be argued they're Tier 4.


I would just like to point out that I couldn't agree more with you!

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BanaB
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby BanaB » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:26 pm

Just keep in mind that Rogue Trader isnt like Rogue Trader.

Or in other words: Its perfectly fine to create a "not so successful" one or a fall from grace character.
Doesnt have to have his ship anymore for example.

But yeah, still... he needs to be Tier 3, just for the sake of the GM to create the right campaign for a character like this.

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Aenno
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Aenno » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:28 am

BanaB wrote:Just keep in mind that Rogue Trader isnt like Rogue Trader.

Or in other words: Its perfectly fine to create a "not so successful" one or a fall from grace character.
Doesnt have to have his ship anymore for example.

But yeah, still... he needs to be Tier 3, just for the sake of the GM to create the right campaign for a character like this.

If you creating a character who are not having ship, Warrant of Trade and a crew in his disposal, wouldn't Ascended Scum archetype serves better?
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

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BanaB
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby BanaB » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:38 am

Rogue Trader "Jack Sparrow" has lost his ship (and crew) when the Rift errupted and split the Imperium.
Still in possession of his title, skills and silver tongue he is gathering friends and resources to aquire a adequate replacement.


Sounds like a perfect opening premisse for a new campaign to me.
Tier 2, the other players were the first people Jack signed up.

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Aenno
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Aenno » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:23 pm

Jack Sparrow definitly is a model Scum. I mean, yes, it's good start for campaign, and, of course, Jack Sparrow can be a member of Rogue Trader dynasty; but I'm not sure he fits for Rogue Trader archetype.
Rogue Trader as an archetype composed by two things - it's his ship (I already listed why it's very, very narratively important); and Warrant of Trade, making him an exception from Imperial laws and limitations, one novel I like called this type of characters "persons whose position allows them to have their own will".
If we have a person who belongs to Rogue Trader dynasty, but doesn't have some resourses making Rogue Trader archetype, wouldn't Scum with <Rogue Trader dynasty> keyword fits this character better? Even if he called himself "Rogue Trader".
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

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BanaB
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby BanaB » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:07 pm

Scum is small-time-gangster.
Rogue Trader is legalized-pirate.

Dont really see how they should be the same archetype.

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Aenno
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Aenno » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:40 am

I believe you take Scum archetype group wrong.
Core Book, p. 135 wrote:Scum are found throughout the Imperium—on nearly every world, there can be a place for those living on the fringes of accepted society. Scum might be chosen as part of an Inquisitor’s retinue when the Inquisitor seeks someone well-versed with the underworld or the downtrodden masses. Scum may have joined the Astra Militarum, wearing the same uniform yet concerned more with themselves than the traditions of the regiment. Scum may even be faithful converts to the Imperial Creed, serving as members of the Frateris Militia or pilgrims on the way to Holy Terra.

Scum is a person who lives outside the "basic" society, who must live on their own resources and having their own interests in mind, doing anything to survive. Jack Sparrow is a scum. Han Solo is a scum. Robin Hood is a scum. Snake Plissken is a scum.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

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BanaB
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby BanaB » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:57 am

Aenno wrote:I believe you take Criminal archetype group wrong.

A Criminal is a person who lives outside the "basic" society, who must live on their own resources and having their own interests in mind, doing anything to survive. Jack Sparrow is a criminal. Han Solo is a criminial. Robin Hood is a criminal. Snake Plissken is a criminal.



I think I've got a pretty good understanding of the material... :)
But lets stop driving away from the topic, we can just agree to disagree.

Radwraith
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Re: Rogue Trader Tier

Postby Radwraith » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:26 pm

I said it in another thread and I'll say it again here: The Rogue trader should be a higher tier or it needs to be tweeked. I'm sure when W+G comes out with their "Codexes" we will get more information on the various Agents. But per the background, A Rogue trader should clock in at tier three or four. An established Rogue trader has about the same influence as an Inquisitor or Chapter master. The Archtype presented here is more of a "Lesser warrant" or "Warrant Minoris" (Basically a Privateer) rather than an established Dynastic scion. If The RT WAS intended as a lesser Warrant, than I believe his wargear options need to be limited a bit more.


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