Compel and Gout of Flame

Yuven
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:04 am

Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby Yuven » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:04 pm

So.. I was reading over the psychic powers, and noticed some thing that might be a tad bit strong.
First off:
Compel
Point Cost: 10
DN: 5
Activation: 2 Simple Actions
Duration: 1 Round
Range: 5 metres
Multi-target: No
Keywords: Psychic
Effect: The psyker implants a simple command in the mind of a nearby creature. This command must be short (consisting of a single action), simple and obvious, but can otherwise overcome the given creature’s own
interests or base instincts. Example commands include: “drop the weapon,” “open the door” or “push him.”
suggestions cannot make a creature perform an action that they are simply incapable of performing—a psyker
cannot make a cyber mastiff work a door handle for example. The target creature must successfully pass a willpower test (DN 4) or is compelled to obey the Compel.
Potency:
[1] +1DN to the Willpower test to resist.

So what I am reading here is a cheap "save or die" power. "kill yourself" is a valid command that the target does not have any more chance of saving from than "These are not the servitors you are looking for", seeing as this power overcomes the creatures base instincts. A Psyker still has a move action, and a regular action on top of this really powerful power. "jump there" Pointing off the manufactorum ledge, into a crucible of molten adamantium. "stand there" pointing in the opening of a blast door, ready to press close. "kill yourself" the psyker says to the Chaos Lord, and the chaos lord puts the melta gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger.

Ok Some might say: "Yuven, the DN to save is just 4, most people will save!", and you are mostly right about that. But this is basicly a free chance for a "save or die". it costs the psyker practically nothing to just spam this. it will work some times, and not at all as infrequently as it should. Aslo the potency [1] +1DN to willpower makes it even more likely to happen.

I have personally houseruled that obvious suicidal commands grants a +4d to saves on this power. Onto the next one.

Gout of Flame
Point Cost: 5
DN: 5
Activation: Action
Duration: Instant
Range: 30 metres
Multi-target: No
Keywords: Fire, Psychic
Effect: The psyker launches a gout of fire towards their foes. Anything in the affected area (Medium Blast)
immediately takes 14 +2ED damage and is burning.
Potency:
[2] +1ED damage.
[2] Affected area is a Large Blast.

So this one is a bit more straight forward. Do a psychic attack, do damage. Fair enough. But the damage though!
14 +2ED, 30m range in AoE! This frankly puts more or less every weapon in this game to shame. A "reliable" source of hefty heavy weapon AoE damage which one can take pretty much anywhere, two hands free, and be able to fire off each turn without ever running out. Yes, i know, Psychic Phenomena.. It is a thing. But Frankly this power costs only 5 BP. A scion who wants to take special weapons trooper has to pay up 20+ BP for frankly inferior weapons. I will be running a T2 campaign soon, and I worry the Scion of my group will feel outmatched even though he is lugging around with a heavy weapon which he paid out the nose for.

Can someone give me some sort of justification for this? Why is this balanced? Even the players who play psychers admit this thing is ridiculous.

Thank you for your time :)

HenriHakl
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:57 pm

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby HenriHakl » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:42 pm

While I agree with your general observations, I'd like to add the following:

1. Why should these powers be balanced (relative to a heavy weapon)? Psychic powers are intentionally overwhelmingly powerful. Psychic powers are rare by canon (that all of your players may chose to be psykers is a different issue).

2. Gout of Flame is potent, but keep in mind that it also does friendly fire. There are many scenarios where it could backfire, especially when engaged in melee. Furthermore, enemies encountered may make use of the same psychic powers.

3. Compel is probably too good, unless the argument that obviously suicidal commands are not "simple" (by some definition of simple). I guess you can ignore the problems with Compel entirely, but rule that Compel simply does not work on elite enemies or adversaries.

4. I think it is worth stressing that Psychic Phenomena can cause the effective end of a campaign.

User avatar
Aenno
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 3:59 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby Aenno » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:44 pm

HenriHakl wrote:3. Compel is probably too good, unless the argument that obviously suicidal commands are not "simple" (by some definition of simple). I guess you can ignore the problems with Compel entirely, but rule that Compel simply does not work on elite enemies or adversaries.

Maybe don't actually forbid it, but allow GM use Ruin to negate Compel effect?
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

HenriHakl
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:57 pm

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby HenriHakl » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:04 pm

Aenno wrote:
HenriHakl wrote:3. Compel is probably too good, unless the argument that obviously suicidal commands are not "simple" (by some definition of simple). I guess you can ignore the problems with Compel entirely, but rule that Compel simply does not work on elite enemies or adversaries.

Maybe don't actually forbid it, but allow GM use Ruin to negate Compel effect?


hmmm, that seems fair on the surface - until you consider that Compel is essentially a "free" action (costing 2 simple actions) - so it could potentially be used as a Ruin sink to empty the GMs hand of Ruin (at the cost of risking Psychic Phenomena).

I'm on the fence about that.

User avatar
Aenno
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 3:59 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby Aenno » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:16 pm

HenriHakl wrote:hmmm, that seems fair on the surface - until you consider that Compel is essentially a "free" action (costing 2 simple actions) - so it could potentially be used as a Ruin sink to empty the GMs hand of Ruin (at the cost of risking Psychic Phenomena).

Well, yes - when the opponent is staying still and allowing you to spam Compel.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

User avatar
BanaB
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby BanaB » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:38 pm

1. Compel cant be used for suicidal commands. Bam, there you have the solution to your "problem".

2. Gout of Flame is ANYTHING in the affected area is burning. Not only enemys or friendlys, but anything. Machines, important dataslates, notes, animals, the fuckin furniture, whatever.

Your scion will be fine, because all he needs to do is to pull the trigger. Your psyker will always need to cast, risk for fails and needs to be very careful what his target is.

RenoGM
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:38 pm

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby RenoGM » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:20 am

Compel states actions that are "short, simple, and obvious." I certainly wouldn't classify suicide as a short, simple, or obvious action. Additionally Compel is a Minor ability that I feel is intended to be used as a "Jedi Mind Trick" sort of thing; used outside of combat far more than in combat.

Gout of Flame also has some serious drawbacks depending on your GM. Collateral damage, potentially injuring allies, producing smoke and sucking up all of the oxygen in an area are just a few of the potential complications I could foresee.

User avatar
Aenno
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 3:59 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby Aenno » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:52 am

RenoGM wrote:I certainly wouldn't classify suicide as a short, simple, or obvious action.

I'd say "shoot yourself", "stab yourself with your sword" or "get out to window" are definitly short, simple and obvious.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

User avatar
Thornius
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:09 pm

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby Thornius » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:36 am

Aenno wrote:
RenoGM wrote:I certainly wouldn't classify suicide as a short, simple, or obvious action.

I'd say "shoot yourself", "stab yourself with your sword" or "get out to window" are definitly short, simple and obvious.


Short? Yes. Simple? Yes. Obvious? You are going to have to run that by me again.

User avatar
BanaB
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:19 am

Re: Compel and Gout of Flame

Postby BanaB » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:51 am

Compare "Puppet Master" with Compel and tell me again that Compel is the right spell for a suicide.
Spoileralert: Its not.


Return to “Rules Questions (W&G)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests