Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:13 am

As it says in the book:
Characters with the Chaos keyword can acquire any gear with the Imperium and/or Scum keyword (and no other faction keyword) normally.


What is a faction keyword? As the book says:
Faction or Nature: These keywords represent one of the most significant parts of your character’s life.
Examples: Imperium, Chaos, Scum, Eldar, Ork, Psyker


Together that means that Chaos chars cannot acquire normally:
- industrial bludgeons, because they also have the Ork keyword
- knives, because they also have Ork and Eldar keywords
- swords, because of their Eldar keyword
- throwing knives, because of their Eldar keyword
- chainswords, because of their Eldar keyword
- power axes, because of their Eldar keyword
- power swords, because of their Eldar keyword
- whips, because of their Ork keyword

And if we read the RAW as they are to the letter (can acquire any gear with the Imperium and/or Scum keyword (and no other faction keyword)), they're also excluded from normal acquisition of:
- chain bayonets, because Chaos is a faction keyword too, and we want things with Imperium and/or Scum only (no other factions!)
- chain fists (same reason)

Malckuss
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Malckuss » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:06 am

Wow. That definitely looks like a case of a rule not working as intended.

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BanaB
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby BanaB » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:18 am

Its an optional rule and you are missing the point that the wargear in the wargear list has the possible keywords on it, not the keywords the item finally has ingame.

Example:
Of course a Chaos space marine can have a chainsword. That would have the chaos keyword (or heretic astartes keyword) and would function like any other chainsword. But it would totally look different then a -lets say- eldar chainsword. Which he couldnt aquire normally but steal from a fallen eldar enemy no problem.

Edit:
In other words: The rule works but is badly worded. Like so many things in this book.

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:30 pm

BanaB wrote:Its an optional rule

[citation needed]
BanaB wrote:and you are missing the point that the wargear in the wargear list has the possible keywords on it, not the keywords the item finally has ingame.

[citation needed], also tangentially opposed by the existence of weapons with the <Any> keyword.
BanaB wrote:Of course a Chaos space marine can have a chainsword. That would have the chaos keyword (or heretic astartes keyword) and would function like any other chainsword.

So you mean that keywords as written don't matter, and the specific rules for acquisition of/starting with equipment with no keywords matching with those of your char don't matter either, because you can make all keywords up on the fly?

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BanaB
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby BanaB » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:15 pm

Dunno where you get that from but in my example:
A chainsword has perfectly fitting keywords for a csm?

My point is that you look to strong on the listed keywords because they are not an "is" sign but a "can be" sign.

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:24 pm

BanaB wrote:Dunno where you get that from but in my example:
A chainsword has perfectly fitting keywords for a csm?

Are you doubting your own claim now? Because the RAW forbid him from getting it; it has the Eldar keyword, and the rule forbids any faction keywords other than Imperium and/or Scum.

BanaB wrote:My point is that you look to strong on the listed keywords because they are not an "is" sign but a "can be" sign.

[citation needed]

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BanaB
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby BanaB » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:27 pm

You still dont get the point.

The chainsword CAN be a eldar chainsword, but it doesnt have to ... a CSM wont run around with an eldari chainsword, but its perfectly fine to have any other (imperial, scum, astartes..) chainsword.

also, again: OPTIONAL rules. Its all GM discretion.

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:32 pm

BanaB wrote:The chainsword CAN be a eldar chainsword, but it doesnt have to ... a CSM wont run around with an eldari chainsword, but its perfectly fine to have any other (imperial, scum, astartes..) chainsword.

There are no such entities from the RAW's point of view. There is a chainsword, and it has Eldar, Imperium, and Chaos keywords, which represent the overall concept and design of a chainsword being widespread among these factions.
BanaB wrote:also, again: OPTIONAL rules.

You still haven't provided any citations to support this claim.
BanaB wrote: Its all GM discretion.

Everything is, including electing to ignore half the rules or to choose a different system altogether. Your point being..?

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BanaB
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby BanaB » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:37 pm

Dont know why you are so toxic and stubborn, but its pretty hostile to demand quotes or evidence of stuff that is clearly in the rulebook if yourself doesnt provide any quotes or evidence for your claims. At this point I better stop this "discussion" for my own sake.

Get your "facts" straight mate.

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Chaos and the Imperium keyword interaction doesn't work as intended, and extreme RAW reading makes it even worse

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:38 pm

BanaB wrote:Dont know why you are so toxic and stubborn, but its pretty hostile to demand quotes or evidence of stuff that is clearly in the rulebook if yourself doesnt provide any quotes or evidence for your claims. At this point I better stop this "discussion" for my own sake.

Oh, so you're just trolling at this point.


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