Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

jack_px
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby jack_px » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:56 pm

Maybe this one was intended to work like this, i dont see the really big problem with it to be honest, with just one good roll you can have a lot of bonus dices to increase your stealth or defence. Like i said, i only see a "relative" problem for tier 1, but, a tier 1 is not expected to be an expert psyker, and even then, if the situation needs it, you can always spend glory and wrath to secure a very good roll. I am narrating a tier 1 group, they know this, usually they try to stack glory very fast, and when the situations needs it BAM 6 glory use, we could be discussing a lot about something that should or shouldnt work like this or like that but, in the end, glory and wrath are part of the game, i have seen many elites die in 1 turn with this, and some adversaries in 2.

quindraco
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby quindraco » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:35 am

jack_px wrote:Maybe this one was intended to work like this, i dont see the really big problem with it to be honest, with just one good roll you can have a lot of bonus dices to increase your stealth or defence. Like i said, i only see a "relative" problem for tier 1, but, a tier 1 is not expected to be an expert psyker, and even then, if the situation needs it, you can always spend glory and wrath to secure a very good roll. I am narrating a tier 1 group, they know this, usually they try to stack glory very fast, and when the situations needs it BAM 6 glory use, we could be discussing a lot about something that should or shouldnt work like this or like that but, in the end, glory and wrath are part of the game, i have seen many elites die in 1 turn with this, and some adversaries in 2.


You can't use 6 glory at Tier 1 (or 2) to improve a psychic mastery test (or, indeed, any test) - the maximum would be 4 (5 at Tier 2), assuming no other sources of bonus dice to collide with. You can use up to 6 on damage, is that what you mean?

jack_px
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby jack_px » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 pm

quindraco wrote:
jack_px wrote:Maybe this one was intended to work like this, i dont see the really big problem with it to be honest, with just one good roll you can have a lot of bonus dices to increase your stealth or defence. Like i said, i only see a "relative" problem for tier 1, but, a tier 1 is not expected to be an expert psyker, and even then, if the situation needs it, you can always spend glory and wrath to secure a very good roll. I am narrating a tier 1 group, they know this, usually they try to stack glory very fast, and when the situations needs it BAM 6 glory use, we could be discussing a lot about something that should or shouldnt work like this or like that but, in the end, glory and wrath are part of the game, i have seen many elites die in 1 turn with this, and some adversaries in 2.


You can't use 6 glory at Tier 1 (or 2) to improve a psychic mastery test (or, indeed, any test) - the maximum would be 4 (5 at Tier 2), assuming no other sources of bonus dice to collide with. You can use up to 6 on damage, is that what you mean?


good point forgot that detail, yet i find more than enough a total of 12d6 to get a good test for this at tier 1.

Verispex
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby Verispex » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:43 pm

I don't have much spare time tonight, but I wanted to post the update on this discussion. I'll add it to my Update post tomorrow night once I finalize the wording and list it specifically.

Chameleon will have the following changes.

DN is 6

Provides +3 dice to Stealth and +1 to Defense still.

Have a wonderful night

- Donavin
Wrath & Glory Community Manager

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Verispex wrote:Provides +3 dice to Stealthn

With all due respect, there's still a 66,(6)% chance for that roll to only compensate for the penalty that arises from the fact of sustaining this very power, and not to actually enhance stealth capabilities (what the power is supposed to do).
The sustenance penalties need reworking, not the power.

ZombieAcePilot
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby ZombieAcePilot » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:02 am

If the penalty for sustaining was only a +1 to DN than even a single die could be a net positive (though only 1/6 times, breaking even only half the time). All of this said, I think many of these powers don't need to provide dice bonuses (or maybe just smaller ones). If they provided a temporary keyword instead they could then have a clear narrative effect which changes if an action is possible or what it's base DN is. As people have already mentioned, the ability to roll stealth while standing in the open due to camouflage is a hell of a benefit. You might not benefit from the bonus dice in a totally dark room (since you are suffering the increased DN), but stealth becomes possible in a lit one.

quindraco
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby quindraco » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:36 pm

ZombieAcePilot wrote:If the penalty for sustaining was only a +1 to DN than even a single die could be a net positive (though only 1/6 times, breaking even only half the time). All of this said, I think many of these powers don't need to provide dice bonuses (or maybe just smaller ones). If they provided a temporary keyword instead they could then have a clear narrative effect which changes if an action is possible or what it's base DN is. As people have already mentioned, the ability to roll stealth while standing in the open due to camouflage is a hell of a benefit. You might not benefit from the bonus dice in a totally dark room (since you are suffering the increased DN), but stealth becomes possible in a lit one.


This is probably the most significant benefit of the Raven Guard Chapter, which grants the ability to stealth anywhere, but I'm not sure Chameleon will be universally interpreted to do the same thing.

I think more psychic powers should provide re-rolls, which are multiplicative in benefit, if they're going to be paired with an additive (+2 DN) penalty. For example, if Chameleon let you re-roll X failed stealth die, you'd need, on average, X=6 for the benefit to equal a +2DN penalty - any more and the benefit would exceed. That way, the answer to "why doesn't this power make me better at Stealth?" is "because you already need to be good at Stealth to use it" when X is "all" and "because the caster is a scrub" when X is based on the caster's roll.

These ideas are combinable - you could have a power provide +X dice and allow you to re-roll up to Y dice (where X could equal Y, but does not need to for the idea to be sound). I'm not sure, without extensive playtesting, what would work out the best.

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Aenno
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Re: Psychic power sustaining rules are overly punishing and don't even line up with some powers

Postby Aenno » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:26 am

quindraco wrote:I think more psychic powers should provide re-rolls, which are multiplicative in benefit, if they're going to be paired with an additive (+2 DN) penalty. For example, if Chameleon let you re-roll X failed stealth die, you'd need, on average, X=6 for the benefit to equal a +2DN penalty - any more and the benefit would exceed. That way, the answer to "why doesn't this power make me better at Stealth?" is "because you already need to be good at Stealth to use it" when X is "all" and "because the caster is a scrub" when X is based on the caster's roll.

I think I'm stealing it right here and now. Why didn't I thought about it myself?..
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.


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