8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

BRKNdevil
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8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby BRKNdevil » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:13 am

What would you consider someone of that level if you would rate him on the Escalation Tiers list?

A platoon Leader is one part of an Infantry Company
they control 5 regular Infantry Squads (10 Members Each, 1 gets a Special Weapon, and 2 can pair up for a Heavy Weapon) and up to 5 Heavy Weapon squads (6 Members Each/ 2 Man groups), 3 Special Weapon Squads (6 guys, but 3 of em can have *not a flashlight*), and 1 Conscripts squad of 30

Like, its probably not on the level where a planetary governor would have to pay heed right? that would probably be a Company Commander though, They can have 5 Platoons at full strength

Would it mess with game balance much if a player could play a Sergeant with 9 NPC Astra Militarum Troopers at Tier 2, treating himself as part of the Mob for item calculation? Not including Lascannon in these calculations. How about The other Squad Types?

Soviet Conscript

Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby Soviet Conscript » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:04 am

BRKNdevil wrote:Like, its probably not on the level where a planetary governor would have to pay heed right? that would probably be a Company Commander though, They can have 5 Platoons at full strength

Planetary Governor would have to pay heed in neither cases. Both platoon commander and company commander of the Astra Militarum are given tactical command authority only over respective military units. They do not have vested authority over any other person, nor they are "autonomous agents" - a platoon commander defers to company commander's authority, while company commander is a direct subordinate to regimental commander.
Would it mess with game balance much if a player could play a Sergeant with 9 NPC Astra Militarum Troopers at Tier 2, treating himself as part of the Mob for item calculation? Not including Lascannon in these calculations. How about The other Squad Types?

IMHO if we take RAI approach both squad-level and platoon-level commanders of the Imperial Guard are still at Tier 1. They individually do not possess much greater combat prowless or "general society" (apart from Astra Militarum itself) autonomous authority.
PS: Besides, it's rather logical that sergeant (NCOs) and officers of the Astra Militarum PCs may well belong to campaigns focused on Astra Militarum troopers PCs.

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BanaB
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Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby BanaB » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:05 am

Tier depends on the environment. If you are a platoon commander surrounded by guardsmen you are at a different tier than a platoon commander involved in a bigger imperial guard mission. But this are kinda unusual campaigns, in a standard campaign I would go for Tier2-Tier3. Probably more on Tier3.

Soviet Conscript

Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby Soviet Conscript » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:24 am

BanaB wrote:Probably more on Tier3.

Hm... for example, we take a rogue trader with an Imperial frigate at his/her disposal. Going by the Rulebook this character would be Tier 2. Yup, with the abitity to call on at least platoon-strength arsmsmen AND the ability to use macrocannons of his/her vessel to strike a target from orbit and REALLY ruin someone's day.

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BanaB
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Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby BanaB » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:39 am

And you are very well aware that this special case is already discussed in 3 other threads and there is no reason why this should be discussed here aswell.
This thread is about a different topic.

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Aenno
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Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby Aenno » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:20 pm

Well, I'd say Tier 2, but higher Rank within this Tier.
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warhammerfrpgm
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Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:34 pm

a Platoon leader is still a t2 character. he is part of a command structure. Within that command structure platoon leaders, squad leaders of popular squads, commissars, and company commanders all have heightened influence. They command some respect automatically from planetary authorities. The Governor of a hive city doesn't want to immediately piss off the guy with nearly 150 troops at his disposal+plus vehicles, additional combat personnel and so forth. For example a a platoon commander commands 103+any potential conscripts. plus any attached transport vehicles. so if you have armoured cavalry(like i am going to play in my campaign) add in at least 10 Chimeras(five for each squad, 1 for command, 1 for the other combined 2 special and heavy squads) up to a total of 14 chimeras(one for each and every squad including command squad+platoon leader). so now you add in 30 to 42 vehicle personnel. Now add in other support personnel, Priests, tech priests, Commissars, Psykers, any other detachments assigned to the platoon for its cambat designation role like Hellhounds, Valkyries, Vendettas, Sentinels, any of the Elysian style vehicles. Not to mention medics, support personnel that are non comms some from ministorum, some from medicae, some from Operations.

Company Commanders are either upper t2 or t3. They can command 5 or more(remember Roboutte commanded reorganizing all parts of military for better function when he returned to the Imperium from his stasis slumber) platoons. sticking with 5: '103(no conscripts in this armoured cavalry build)+ 10 chimeras+30 vehicle crew so thats 133x5 for 665 troops plus at least 50 chimeras. add in the company command squad and their command chimera(or salamander) for 670 total and 51 chimeras. if you also want conscripts that's another 150 troops plus larger less effective transport trucks. for a grand total of 820 people all armed, trained, and ready to do some damage.

Average regiment has 3-10 companies at least and well you get where i am going. A full regiment numbers in the 3-10k range of combat and non combat personnel, especially once you have all those noncoms. Have a few regimental Commanders show up on a planet and the planetary governor either welcomes them as their saviors, or shits his pants if he didn't ask for them to be there. all those troops can cause an awful lot of mischief.

Soviet Conscript

Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby Soviet Conscript » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:12 am

For example a a platoon commander commands 103

Where do you get that number, may I wonder? For example, 8-th Cadian Shock troops regiment was listed as having about 8000 men in its 24 companies. That's about 330+ men in a company and considering 6 platoons per company and company-level specialist units we get about 50 men in a platoon. Tallarn light infantry (as per Imperial Armour books) was also listed as having 56-men strong platoons.
However, there is actually no fixed numbers, since an Astra Militarum infantry platoon can generally be anywhere between 2 and 6 infantry squads + any organic vehicles and support specialist units of a platoon. So, while Krieg Death Korps may tend to use larger units, light infantry regiment from some far-away agri-world may be using smaller, more maneuvrable platoons and companies.
The Governor of a hive city doesn't want to immediately piss off the guy with nearly 150 troops at his disposal+plus vehicles, additional combat personnel and so forth

1) Both platoon and company commanders of the Astra Militarum are not "independant agents". A platoon commander defers to company commanders authority, while a company commanders answers to regiment commander. Nor do those (Astra Militarum platoon and company-level commanders) possess a mandate for enforcing Imperial law among general civilian population (such mandate entails power to legally judge someone for their infractions of Lex Imperialis and dispense appropriate punishments under mandate owner's own authority - like such mandate is possessed by any inquisitor of the Imperial Inquisition).
2) A hive city usually has a population of many millions of men and women. With the appropriate number of enforcer cadres (that is local-level police forces). For example, real-life New York's (8+ million population) police department has about 38 000 + police officers in their ranks. Hive city enforcers would be, considering typical population, not less numerous.
PS: Also worh notice that enforcers in Imperial hive cities tend to be highly militarized (with full suits of flak armour, lasguns, combat shotguns and so on) and possess much lower threshold for using lethal force than almost any IRL police force.

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Aenno
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Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby Aenno » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:24 am

Soviet Conscript wrote:Nor do those (Astra Militarum platoon and company-level commanders) possess a mandate for enforcing Imperial law among general civilian population (such mandate entails power to legally judge someone for their infractions of Lex Imperialis and dispense appropriate punishments under mandate owner's own authority - like such mandate is possessed by any inquisitor of the Imperial Inquisition).

Just to nickpick: there is one option where it's not exactly true. With senior Commisariate officer approval, highest-rank military commander in area can declare martial law, and therefore to be highest authority in civillian affairs. Situation where such officer would be platoon leader would be very rare, I believe - but possible.

Soviet Conscript wrote:Where do you get that number, may I wonder?

p. 11 Astra Militarum Codex (8th edition) give following OoB for platoon:
1. Command squad, 5 men, including commander himself.
2. Five infantry squads, 10 men each.
3. Up to three special weapons teams, 6 men each (snipers, flamethrowers, plasma/melta gunners, grenadeires).
4. Up to five heavy weapons teams, 6 men each (3 teams with mortairs, autocannons, heavy bolters, missle launchers or lascannons).
5. Up to one conscript squad. up to 30 men.
Therefore, 55 men is core of platoon, who aren't suppose to fight such way (without heavy and special support). If it's fully ranked, it's 133 men. Of course, such beefy platoons would be very, very rare.

Soviet Conscript wrote:A hive city usually has a population of many millions of men and women. With the appropriate number of enforcer cadres (that is local-level police forces). For example, real-life New York's (8+ million population) police department has about 38 000 + police officers in their ranks.

Moscow police (12 millions) is about 80 000 officers. Keep in mind that structures like police special teams (so-called OMONs), anti-narcotic services, antiterrorist forces and so on isn't in police structures. So... I wouldn't envy young leutenant who came to hive city governor and demand something because he has hundred armed men.
But, well, he can borrow authority of service. I mean, the point he isn't independent agent does not play against him only; governor would understand that behind said leutenant stays his company leader, and then regiment leader.

warhammerfrpgm wrote: Now add in other support personnel, Priests, tech priests, Commissars, Psykers, any other detachments assigned to the platoon for its cambat designation role like Hellhounds, Valkyries, Vendettas, Sentinels, any of the Elysian style vehicles. Not to mention medics, support personnel that are non comms some from ministorum, some from medicae, some from Operations.

That's regiment level assets. They can be directed to help platoon, but still are under authority of regiment leader. Astra Militarum 8th ed. Codex, p. 15.
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quindraco
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Re: 8th Edition Astra Militarum Platoon Leader Influence Level

Postby quindraco » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:53 pm

I think the Devotees talent is intended to do something like this, but it's pretty weird - for one thing, it caps out at 7 dudes in your squad, not 9 like a Sergeant would expect, and for another, it's based on NPC Troops, which has all manner of strange interactions with other rules, since NPCs don't play by the rules to begin with (e.g. Imperial Guard troops have +1 Conviction and +1 Resilience it's challenging to reconcile with the Devotees talent modifying their attributes, since the entry doesn't explain where these bonuses come from).

The first step should probably be rebuilding the base Imperial Guardsman to be legal; here's an attempt I made to simulate the tabletop, noting that 4 dice hits DN3 about half the time, making it a good simulator for BS4+ and the like, and also taking heart from the Troops entry for them, with stuff like Damage 6 in melee:

Agility: 4
Fellowship: 1 (Influence 1)
Initiative: 4 (Defence 3)
Intellect: 3 (Passive Awareness: 2)
Strength: 4 (Melee Damage +4, Reloads 3)
Toughness: 4 (Resilience 5+3 [+Rank on Look Out], Soak 4, Wounds 5)
Willpower: 4 (Conviction 4, Resolve 3, Shock 5)
Wealth: 0
Archetype: +1/2 Rank to 1 Skill or Resolve Tests, determined by <Regiment>
Wargear: Lasgun with Bayonet, Flak Armour, Etc

That's a standard issue 100BP Guardsman with no Background.

Now, we make a new Talent:
Imperial Guard Sergeant
Prerequisites: Imperium, Astra Militarum, <Regiment>, (Fellowship + Leadership) 6+, Tier 2+
Cost: 30
Benefits: You gain Background[Keyword:<Regiment>]; if you already have it, instead gain Background[Accomplishment] (choosing either benefit, as normal). You command a squad of 9 Guardsmen (see above), who use your Rank as their own for derived abilities (Look Out and Regimental Bonus), and share your <Regiment>. When a Guardsman is slain, the next time you are in contact with your Regiment (GM discretion), your contact from your Regimental Background will replenish lost Guardsman, although at the GM's discretion, sufficiently heavy losses may result in needing to make a Persuade test to acquire more (your contact begins the campaign Helpful). Members of the Squad must take a Resolve test when they believe (GM discretion) fellow members have died, DN=number of members they believe have died since the last test. If they fail the test by 1 or less, they become Pinned; if they fail the test by 2 or more, they become Pinned, and afraid of every attacker they are aware of (as if they had failed a Fear test); by 4 or more, Pinned and terrified as if they had failed a Terror test.

You acquire special and heavy weapons for them the way you would acquire them for yourself.


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