Low-Tier Warriors...

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Aenno
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby Aenno » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:31 am

BRKNdevil wrote:Always felt that the Imperial Guardsman is literally fresh off the planet and thus could be considered PDF. Unless your Cadian or literally any Death Planet

I believe it's flowing from time to time, but in current Codexes and in fluff it's not true. Conscripts (and vets) are special type of IG forces.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

Savioronedge
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby Savioronedge » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:39 pm

<Disclaimer>The following is entirely personal opinion</Disclaimer>

In any fighting force you find soldiers and you find SOLDIERS, and many grades between. This is never about rank, though many times the distinction will influence rank. Medal of Honor recipients run the full spectrum of the US rank structure.

There is no (Zero) reason a PDF member couldn't have the stats of an IG archetype; and if she has the PC Glow (old D&D reference) it's even more likely that she's at least as talented/skilled as the IG cadre. Luke was just a farm boy with a few weeks training when he blew up the Death Star (to pull from an unrelated example).

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Aenno
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby Aenno » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:50 pm

Thing is, sometimes you can need an enemy or even a player who is _really_ not SOLDIERS (and by rank I meant W&G characteristic - p. 82).
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

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Thornius
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby Thornius » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:35 am

For enemies, if you need PDF Troopers who are noticeably below Guardsman standard, I think they should be treated as Conscripts, which I would personally do by taking the Astra Militarum Trooper and applying -1 to all Skills, Resolve, Conviction and Passive Awareness and also remove Frag Grenades.

Ilias Bethomael
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:49 am

Aenno wrote:Thing is, sometimes you can need an enemy or even a player who is _really_ not SOLDIERS (and by rank I meant W&G characteristic - p. 82).


Take the Guardsman NPC profile, substract 1 from the dice pool of every skill (well, where appropriate) and drop resolve by 1.

If you want to represent PDF troopers with your players, take the Guardsman archetype and and houserule that their Ballistic Skill (and maybe Weapon Skill) must not exceed the prerequisite of 2. This represents that they passed the muster, yet did not receive the training of Imperial Cannon Fodder a Guardsman. Of course PDFs have regimental doctrines comarable to those of regular guard regiments, so I do not see a problem with your PCs receiving something similar.

Everything else would be too heavy handed imho.

Also, with all the references to the tabletop codices, you have to keep in mind, that weapon and model stats are extremely simplified for the sake of a lean rules system that uses single d6 for everything. And in addtion, to say that a Guardsman is better trained as a Fire Warrior is imho a fallacy. Just because on the tabletop Guardsmen can receive orders whereas Tau can't, doesn't mean they are less well prepared for combat. Don't forget the discipline of the Tau is not represented by orders but by the Bonding Knife Ritual and the Mon'kah(?).

EDIT: Dang, Thornius beat me to some of it xD
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warhammerfrpgm
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:55 pm

BRKNdevil wrote:Always felt that the Imperial Guardsman is literally fresh off the planet and thus could be considered PDF. Unless your Cadian or literally any Death Planet


agreed. I would play the Tier 1 imperial guardsmen as brand spanking new soldiers. They would have no real combat experience. I would give PDF about 80 build points. Also, PDF wouldn't get planetary benefits unless from a Death world, Cadia, or something similar.

I am considering adding in the option for alternatives for the Look out Sir. I am building the party to be a special weapons squad from an armoured Cavalry regiment. They would have a Chimera(I own several for 40k). I was thinking that a specialist weapon squad soldier wouldn't use look out sir because they are a 6 man squad to begin with, and they don't have a sergeant.

I was also considering a way to give them something to reflect their benefits in 8th edition. Since the planet they hail from uses a lot of vehicles would give them the Armageddon Benefit to pilot. In game terms it would let them use the rapid fire benefit for their lasguns at 36 M instead of 24 M. This would add consistency to the flavor.

jack_px
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby jack_px » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:55 pm

I just wanted to quote this i found in the imperial guard profile in the bestiary.

"the average lifespan of a Guardsman once deployed is under 15 hours"

So comparing the other options in the diferent tiers i think tier 1 for an IG is be more than enough xd.

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Aenno
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby Aenno » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:34 am

jack_px wrote:I just wanted to quote this i found in the imperial guard profile in the bestiary.

"the average lifespan of a Guardsman once deployed is under 15 hours"

So comparing the other options in the diferent tiers i think tier 1 for an IG is be more than enough xd.

Well, reading about common nemesises IG meets, I'd say it require very professional soldier to live through active tyrannide assault or Drukhari raid for 15 hours!
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

Lynata
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby Lynata » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:48 am

The main problem here is the simple fact that there are massive discrepancies in the quality both between individual PDF units and between Imperial Guard regiments. The latter are often better than the former, but not universally. This is because Guard regiments tend to be recruited directly out of the PDF, so there's a direct relationship in terms of quality. For example, a regiment of Jopall Indentured Squadrons conscripted out of planetary militia will most likely be worse than the Cadian Interior Guard.

This detail is aggravated by some regiments of the Guard not even being raised from "professional" (and, given the culture on some Imperial worlds, we should probably use this term loosely) soldiery, but conscripted from the ranks of underhive gangs (Necromunda Spiders), penal colony inmates (Savlar Chem-Dogs), or even civilian farmhands (Jumael Volunteers). By law, Imperial governors are supposed to make sure each man or woman sent as part of world's tithe would conform to expectations, but since standards in terms of training and equipment are so loosely defined, many seem to get away with paying only lip service to this part of their responsibility.

Planet A may present the Imperial Guard with the elite of its PDF, carefully selected over months-long contests between prestigious household regiments and staffed with noble-born officers. Planet B just dumps a load of prison inmates in front of the landers and tells them to step inside or get shot.

In cases where a levy consists of soldiers without prior training, the only training they will receive is whatever the officers and the Commissar(s) will be able to drill into their heads during the troopship's journey to the warzone where the regiment will see its trial by fire. Depending on distance and the Warp, that may be only a few weeks, not to mention that the one and only truly uniform piece of equipment you should be able to find on any Guardsman is the lasgun (and even here we know of a few exceptions).

tl;dr: Technically speaking, the Guardsman Archetype may just as well apply to PDF characters without problem, just like it's supposed to apply to all Guard regiments, regardless of the crass differences that can at times be observed between them. A good GM will likely be open to the idea of tweaking stats and/or equipment, if the Archetype is supposed to represent something specific that doesn't seem to align with the rules as written. For example, a fresh conscript or a PDF trooper who has never seen combat may well be a case for a Tier 0 game, whereas it's well possible that a Tier 2 Ascended Guardsman is just an average Cadian Shock Trooper who just completed their Whiteshield phase.

[disclaimer: the above impression is based exclusively on GW codex material and may well be contradicted by other official sources; the usual "there is no canon" caveat applies, and players should feel free to pursue their own preferred interpretation, as long as they find common ground at the table]

quindraco
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Re: Low-Tier Warriors...

Postby quindraco » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:56 am

Lynata wrote:tl;dr: Technically speaking, the Guardsman Archetype may just as well apply to PDF characters without problem, just like it's supposed to apply to all Guard regiments, regardless of the crass differences that can at times be observed between them. A good GM will likely be open to the idea of tweaking stats and/or equipment, if the Archetype is supposed to represent something specific that doesn't seem to align with the rules as written. For example, a fresh conscript or a PDF trooper who has never seen combat may well be a case for a Tier 0 game, whereas it's well possible that a Tier 2 Ascended Guardsman is just an average Cadian Shock Trooper who just completed their Whiteshield phase.


How *do* people feel about the Ascension process? Depending on the from tier and the to tier, it can feel very powerful, or it can feel like a nerf. I can't even tell what's actually intended; many Tier 2+ archetypes are bad enough for their cost that "taxing" higher-tier characters feels appropriate, but at the same time, their archetype bonus DOES improve (which ascension usually does not address), and it's not universally true (e.g. Scavvies easily earn their 10 point cost over a 0-cost Tier 1 archetype).

For example, you can use Stay the Course X->2 or X->3 to simulate the Augmetic talent but cheaper, but not X->4 or X->5. That's weird, right? Particularly since at lower tiers, talent "slots" are less numerous, so there's more intrinsic value in getting a talent without spending the slot? Why make Ascension packages better the fewer tiers you ascend?


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