Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

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CorwynNiTessine
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby CorwynNiTessine » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:17 pm

Verispex wrote:.

Do you mind clarifying with the authors if they really meant Devotee to be based on Rank instead of Tier? It leads to some really odd behavior that overshadows other PCs at low Tiers. See discussion in viewtopic.php?f=45&t=3128&p=30877#p30877

Likewise, do you mind clarifying with the authors if they meant for Toxic to be all-or-nothing (as it is written), or whether Icons on the Toughness roll should lower the damage. I ask because that's how Ross Watson GM'ed it. See viewtopic.php?f=45&t=3202

Avin’tril
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Avin’tril » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:26 am

Hello all! Have been reading up on some threads while ADMIN approved my account. Finally glad to be here. :) With that said... guess I'll dive right in.

On the subject of “RELOADS”, according to the Wrath & Glory Core rules (p. 219) it states, “There is no single set definition of a Reload. The ammunition may be described as a single magazine, belt, or drum of ammunition; a bandolier of energy shells; a canister of promethium; and various other more exotic munitions. The description is merely for cosmetic purposes and has no in-game effect.” (I.e. the Reloads are just a number and NOT specific to the weapon being reloaded.)

To me this means if you have a ranged weapon, say a Laspistol, you have the ability to fire your weapon normally throughout the combat (near infinite). But if you wanted to expend one of your 3 Reloads you start with to do something special with your weapon, like perform the Salvo Combat Option (p. 222), you would now be down to 2 Reloads.

In addition let's say, through the course of adventuring (or though Ascension) you acquire an additional Ranged Weapon, say a Bolt Pistol. Now you have two choices to use your Reloads on.

You're feeling frisky now. So during your next firefight you decide to burn a Reload and use your trusty Las-Pistol to lay down some Suppressive Fire (p. 223). The next combat round you decide to use a Multi-Action to Reload your Laspistol (lowering your 3 Reloads to 2) and in the same turn use one of the 2 Reloads you now have left to do a Salvo with your shiny new Bolt Pistol for that extra punch. Next round you spend an Action to Reload the Bolt Pistol... now you are down to 1 Reload. This can continue until you are out of Reloads.

In a different example let's talk about “consumable/expendable” ammunition, like grenades. Let's say you are a mighty Tactical Space Marine and you start off with “3 frag and krak grenades” (p. 129). During combat you decide to lob a frag grenade by hand into a mob of Orks. BOOM! Now you're down to 2 frag, and 3 krak grenades. (OR, it could even mean you just have “3 grenades”... and they could be a mix of frag and krak? I'm actually leaning towards this. But let's just stick to starting with 3 of each for this example.)

Side Note: Since the grenade (thrown by hand) has a Salvo Rating of “-” you would only be able to use a Reload to perform a Suppressive Fire attack with it, you could not do a Salvo or Multi-Attack. (see pages 220-223.)

For your next firefight you decide to whip out your Voss Pattern Grenade Launcher (p. 286) and start bringing the pain! You load a frag (or krak) grenade into the launcher and perform a Salvo Attack. During this attack you use one of your Reloads (to do something cool — the Salvo) AND a frag grenade (the specific ammunition). Assuming you were “fully loaded” you would now have 2 frag/3 krak grenades and 2 Reloads left.

Another example would be to take your VPGL and launch a frag grenade into that mob of Heretics, consuming one grenade— and perform a Multi-attack (pgs. 220 & 222)—using one Reload. You would be able to do this since the VPGL has a Salvo rating of 1.

Hope this is all making sense... basically put, think of it like a movie. You are in the midst of a firefight... your buddies are pinned down and one of your squad-mates ducks behind cover yelling, "I'm out!” You toss him a magazine saying, “Last one... make it count!” Filled with the courage only Faith in the Emperor can give, he surges forward and yells, ”Cadia stands!” emptying his clip into your enemy, killing them all!

You just gave your buddy one of your Reloads and he did something amazing with it. :) (This action is allowed, within reason. “Reloads may only be acquired, shared, or given to other characters if it makes sense narratively in context.” CORE p. 219.)

P.S. CorwynNITessine, perhaps it's more likely there was a single mistake on the number of stikkbombs Ork Kommandos have, instead of several mistakes on all the other Archetypes that have grenades...?

jack_px
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby jack_px » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:07 am

Avin’tril wrote:Side Note: Since the grenade (thrown by hand) has a Salvo Rating of “-” you would only be able to use a Reload to perform a Suppressive Fire attack with it, you could not do a Salvo or Multi-Attack. (see pages 220-223.)

For your next firefight you decide to whip out your Voss Pattern Grenade Launcher (p. 286) and start bringing the pain! You load a frag (or krak) grenade into the launcher and perform a Salvo Attack. During this attack you use one of your Reloads (to do something cool — the Salvo) AND a frag grenade (the specific ammunition). Assuming you were “fully loaded” you would now have 2 frag/3 krak grenades and 2 Reloads left.


There has been said multiple times that you dont spend a grenade when using a grenade launcher (since they have a salvo of 1), you just treat it like any other weapon. This has been clarified by the devs.

Avin’tril
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Avin’tril » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:48 am

Thanks for the clarification.

warhammerfrpgm
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:18 pm

Avin’tril wrote:Hello all! Have been reading up on some threads while ADMIN approved my account. Finally glad to be here. :) With that said... guess I'll dive right in.

For your next firefight you decide to whip out your Voss Pattern Grenade Launcher (p. 286) and start bringing the pain! You load a frag (or krak) grenade into the launcher and perform a Salvo Attack. During this attack you use one of your Reloads (to do something cool — the Salvo) AND a frag grenade (the specific ammunition). Assuming you were “fully loaded” you would now have 2 frag/3 krak grenades and 2 Reloads left.



so in actuallity grenade launchers aren't launchers for your thrown grenades. its a weapon that uses drums of launchable grenades designed specifically for it. you can't pop your handheld frag grenades into a launcher designed specifically for launched ones. The tabletop mini is very clearly looking like a guy with a huge drum of grenades in the launcher. thats why it has a salvo rating. also go to youtube. look up automatic grenade launcher. watch some of those videos. totally reminds me of 40k handheld logic for grenade launcher.

the challenge then becomes when the guy wants to switch ammo. i would argue that would be a basic action or maybe even a regular action. those are large drums on that weapon. though i would argue it doesn't cost them a reload as they didn't deplete the clip/drum/reload. I also wouldn't give tier 1 characters 3 frag reloads and 3 krak reloads. it seems rather bulky. more likely they would get 3 frag reloads and 1 krak reload. it very much tones down the grenade launcher at tier 1. Perhaps they can acquire more for specific missions.

As for thrown grenades I would Always have assumed that they are one shot items. therefore, they don't use reloads. trooper has 3. no more until more is replenished, gained, found, looted. I feel like that is in keeping with the feel. why would the invest the average trooper with more than that. Guardsmen are expendable. heck its why the Boys on Osha prime have red flack armour. they are redshirts after all. yes this means the PC's in my campaign are playing as redshirts. :)

I also gather that characters have 3 reloads per weapon they are carrying, not 3 reloads overall. most weapons don't share clips. So in the example of the bolt pistol and laspistol owner, they would spend those differently. Also. if one is jammed they probably could always switch weapons. If a character is dual wielding two of the same weapon then they would have 3 reloads for each of the same weapon. its not like a character is going to have a rifle, two pistols, two melee weapons, 6 standard grenades as well as specialty grenades. where are they going to stuff all that and have reloads.

I'd like to think with your special ammo stuff that it is considered expended when the character is forced to use a reload as that completely expends that clip/drum/whatever it is.

anyhow. i like your diving right into the whole thing.

jack_px
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby jack_px » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:36 pm

For me the actual reload sistem is very good, yes you trade reality with huge abstraction, yet for me as a GM has made thing hell easier to track. When played dark heresy i never tracked the bullets to be honest, i tried but when you have 6 players each with a different weapon it gets tiresome and i drop it. This made mi gming a lot easier xd.

Avin’tril
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Avin’tril » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:36 pm

warhammefrpgm wrote:
I also gather that characters have 3 reloads per weapon they are carrying, not 3 reloads overall. most weapons don't share clips. So in the example of the bolt pistol and laspistol owner, they would spend those differently.


Ok, I see where you are going with this . But, I would disagree. I think some of the confusion here in this tread concerning ammunition/Reloads is caused by conflating miniature wargaming rules and mechanics with Pen&Pager PRG storytelling. That said...

The rules for “Ammunition and Reloads” in W&G Core Rules (p. 219) are specific in their wording:

“There is no single set definition of a Reload. The ammunition [contained inside the Reload] may be described as a single magazine, belt, or drum of ammunition; a bandolier of energy shells; a canister of promethium; and various other more exotic munitions. The description is merely for cosmetic purposes and has no in-game effect.” (p. 219, ¶1) [emphasis mine]

This is important because you do not have to track the “bolt-type” or “las-type” Reloads; just the overall number of Reloads. Tracking the different types can get away from the players and the GM I feel... and interferes with the storytelling. So why introduce a needless burden by accounting for all the different kinds of ammunition your Reloads are filled with? It could be why the regulated number of Reloads you can carry is the only mechanic W&G has that even remotely resembles Encumbrance rules... just a thought.

A Reload is not used to simply fire a weapon under normal circumstances. (See p. 219, “Ammunition and Reloads” ¶3)
“Under typical circumstances, a Reload is not expended through firing the weapon normally. All characters are presumed to be reasonably disciplined with their ammunition use. Outside of misfortune, such as a critical failure or Complication, a character can keep firing their weapon for an entire battle without noticeably diminishing their ammunition supply. However, Reloads can be spent or lost.” [emphasis mine]

To me this means Reloads are interchangeable between weapons because...

“Reloads may only be acquired, shared, or given to other characters if it makes sense narratively in context. The Game Master must use their discretion to decide if Reloads may be given to other characters, shared, or scavenged from the enemy based on what is happening in that particular scene.” (p. 219, ¶4)

As for “running out of ammunition” and not being able to fire your weapon at all; see rules under “Ammunition and Reloads” p.220, ¶1, Complications.

“Complications: If a player rolls a Complication, one of the character’s Reloads may be removed as a result. If the character has no Reloads remaining, then such a Complication means that the character is completely out of ammunition, rendering a weapon unusable until more ammo can be located.”

Reloads, in essence, are a consumable commodity and they augment your weapon by allowing the firer to perform special actions with their weapon(s). To me they are similar to the things you can do by spending Wrath, or Glory... or even Ruin. They are just a number of cool things you can do with any ranged weapon. So all of the record keeping (i.e. las or bolt Reloads) is confusing and unnecessary because the game does not force you to keep track of that “ammunition”, just how many time you can do something cool. :)

As for grenade launchers and grenades... I'll trust the Devs because it seems the best/easiest way to track equipment; maintain the “spirit” of Reloads and the overall application of Rule Zero.

gribble
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby gribble » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:31 am

A few questions/clarifications cropped up in our game last night (Tier 4, Deathwatch):

1) Can you charge as part of a multi action? The clarification on the first page of this thread seems to imply that charging takes all your actions... but I'm not sure. For context, the PC wanted to run or sprint, then charge, to close the distance with the enemy (effectively moving 2/3 times their speed before the attack, but with a +2 DN penalty).

2) How does dual wielder + multi-attack work if the wielder has 2 different weapons? I understand the scenario where he attacks the same target twice, but one option is to attack two different targets without the +2 DN penalty for a multi-attack. However the talent goes on to describe only rolling the damage once... how does this work if the two weapons are very different (in our case was a plasma pistol and a bolt pistol)? I just had the PC roll damage separately in this case... but I'm not sure of the intent.

3) Does the Powered trait add to melee damage? If so, it seems slightly overpowered as even humble astartes combat knives will be as good, if not better than, bolters. Also, is it meant to entirely negate all drawbacks from Heavy weapons? Again, if so it means that space marines should always use only melee and heavy weapons... they are almost universally better across the board, and there is zero penalty...

4) I think there needs to be another category for Terminator-only weapons. As written there is nothing stopping a normal marine from using an assault cannon (negating all penalties due to his power armour), which doesn't seem right...
Last edited by gribble on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nitoryu Kushirin
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Nitoryu Kushirin » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:06 am

gribble wrote:4) I think there needs to be another category for Terminator-only weapons. As written there is nothing stopping a normal marine from using an assault cannon (negating all penalties due to his power armour), which doesn't seem right...

What's wrong with that tho? It's not like a non-termie version of an assault cannon can't be made, even if it would be a heavy weapon - and we've had termies lugging plasma cannons and multimeltas, which are common heavy weapons for non-termies.

gribble
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby gribble » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:09 am

Nitoryu Kushirin wrote:
gribble wrote:4) I think there needs to be another category for Terminator-only weapons. As written there is nothing stopping a normal marine from using an assault cannon (negating all penalties due to his power armour), which doesn't seem right...

What's wrong with that tho? It's not like a non-termie version of an assault cannon can't be made, even if it would be a heavy weapon - and we've had termies lugging plasma cannons and multimeltas, which are common heavy weapons for non-termies.

From my perspective, I just think it's odd to see a weapon being treated this way that we haven't seen elsewhere in the lore as being man portable outside of Terminators. You'd think that if it were possible, normal devastator marines would have been using them already...

Then again, 40k these days has all sorts of weird combos like this "just because" (e.g. all Primaris weapons), so I suppose it isn't out of the question.


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