Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

quindraco
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:54 am

Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby quindraco » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:22 am

gribble wrote:
Nitoryu Kushirin wrote:
gribble wrote:4) I think there needs to be another category for Terminator-only weapons. As written there is nothing stopping a normal marine from using an assault cannon (negating all penalties due to his power armour), which doesn't seem right...

What's wrong with that tho? It's not like a non-termie version of an assault cannon can't be made, even if it would be a heavy weapon - and we've had termies lugging plasma cannons and multimeltas, which are common heavy weapons for non-termies.

From my perspective, I just think it's odd to see a weapon being treated this way that we haven't seen elsewhere in the lore as being man portable outside of Terminators. You'd think that if it were possible, normal devastator marines would have been using them already...

Then again, 40k these days has all sorts of weird combos like this "just because" (e.g. all Primaris weapons), so I suppose it isn't out of the question.


I think the problem is bigger than you describe; because any powered armor completely ignores heavy, and we have no rules covering handedness, there's currently no way to justify terminators carrying heavy weapons one-handed while non-terminators do not (which is consistent across the entire power armor range in WH40K tabletop), and accordingly, some really bizarre conclusions, like how it currently makes no sense for any sister of battle to carry a storm bolter, as she'd have an easier time acquiring an assault cannon and wield it just as easily.

I suspect we need to junk the rule letting any powered armor completely ignore heavy, so it helps you ignore heavy but doesn't just accomplish it on its own, then add a rule that any weapon which is neither pistol nor heavy gains heavy[1], then add a rule letting you one-hand any weapon whose heavy rating you exceed by 4 or more. That would let terminators with an S7 Marine inside one-hand assault cannons, but in a regular suit, the same Marine would need to be S9 (a much more challenging proposition).

Lynata
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:44 am

Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Lynata » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:56 pm

gribble wrote:Also, is it meant to entirely negate all drawbacks from Heavy weapons? [...] I think there needs to be another category for Terminator-only weapons. As written there is nothing stopping a normal marine from using an assault cannon (negating all penalties due to his power armour), which doesn't seem right...

I don't think this is how the rule is supposed to be interpreted. Rather, the confusion may be a result of a flawed description of the Powered Trait. However, if we look at the Heavy Trait on page 275:

"Characters who do not meet [the minimum Strength requirement] incur an increase of +2DN on the attack, and a roll of 1 on the Wrath Dice knocks the user prone in addition to any other complication. Characters wearing powered armour and beings with the Adeptus Astartes or Ork keywords are not knocked prone when firing unsecured Heavy weapons."

This wording explicitly separates the Knockback from the Strength requirement. I take this to mean that the Powered Trait is meant only to prevent you from getting knocked down. You still need a sufficient Strength rating to negate the +2DN penalty, although the suit may help you achieve this.

quindraco wrote:I suspect we need to junk the rule letting any powered armor completely ignore heavy, so it helps you ignore heavy but doesn't just accomplish it on its own, then add a rule that any weapon which is neither pistol nor heavy gains heavy[1], then add a rule letting you one-hand any weapon whose heavy rating you exceed by 4 or more. That would let terminators with an S7 Marine inside one-hand assault cannons, but in a regular suit, the same Marine would need to be S9 (a much more challenging proposition).

Perhaps a bit convoluted. Why not instead:
  • add to the Heavy Trait that weapons of this class count as Two-Handed by default
  • add to the Cumbersome Trait that it negates the Two-Handed Trait
This would serve primarily to address the issue of limiting one-handed wielding of Heavy weapons to Terminator and similarly bulky suits of armour, including Meganob Mega Armour. As a bonus, Terminators could now properly wield the Thunder Hammers with one hand, as they do on the tabletop, opening up their Hammer/Shield combo which currently would be against the rules.

If we wanted to further limit even the wielding of non-Pistol, non-Heavy weapons with one hand, we could just use the +2DN penalty inspired by Heavy, then add a Talent with a Strength prerequisite. Or just add a "Basic" Trait that neatly condenses all of this in one single paragraph. We've got both Pistol and Heavy Traits, so one could argue this would simply complete the trifecta.

gribble
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby gribble » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:14 am

Lynata wrote:I don't think this is how the rule is supposed to be interpreted. Rather, the confusion may be a result of a flawed description of the Powered Trait.


That is why we were confused, because the Powered trait states:
W&G pg 299 wrote:A character wearing Powered armour ignores the Heavy weapon trait.

To me that means that it treats the weapon as if it doesn't have the trait... so none of the Heavy rules apply. I do agree that it probably shouldn't ignore the Strength requirements, and then it would make a lot more sense and also allow room for suspensors as an item (which should ignore or reduce the rating of Heavy items).

Lynata wrote:Perhaps a bit convoluted. Why not instead:
  • add to the Heavy Trait that weapons of this class count as Two-Handed by default
  • add to the Cumbersome Trait that it negates the Two-Handed Trait
This would serve primarily to address the issue of limiting one-handed wielding of Heavy weapons to Terminator and similarly bulky suits of armour, including Meganob Mega Armour. As a bonus, Terminators could now properly wield the Thunder Hammers with one hand, as they do on the tabletop, opening up their Hammer/Shield combo which currently would be against the rules.

+1 - I like it.

Lynata
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:44 am

Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Lynata » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:01 am

gribble wrote:To me that means that it treats the weapon as if it doesn't have the trait... so none of the Heavy rules apply. I do agree that it probably shouldn't ignore the Strength requirements, and then it would make a lot more sense and also allow room for suspensors as an item (which should ignore or reduce the rating of Heavy items).
Yeah, that got me confused as well! I just think the Heavy rules explicitly separating Strength requirement from the Powered Trait, in that it's specifically calling out that Powered only helps against knockback, would mean that the more generally explained Powered Trait (which doesn't bother to go into details but simply ignores Heavy entirely) is just badly worded.

Of course, official clarification would be appreciated, but this way things would make a lot more sense to me! ;)

Also, I really like the idea of adding the Suspensor. Its mechanic could be quite elegant, just as you described. In theory, it could even just remove the +2DN, but maintain the risk of getting knocked over -- representing that the gun's levitation mechanism makes it easier to carry, but would not affect its recoil? I'd probably lean more towards a simple reduction of the Heavy value, too, but it's an interesting alternative.

Ilias Bethomael
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:54 am

Lynata wrote:
gribble wrote:To me that means that it treats the weapon as if it doesn't have the trait... so none of the Heavy rules apply. I do agree that it probably shouldn't ignore the Strength requirements, and then it would make a lot more sense and also allow room for suspensors as an item (which should ignore or reduce the rating of Heavy items).
Yeah, that got me confused as well! I just think the Heavy rules explicitly separating Strength requirement from the Powered Trait, in that it's specifically calling out that Powered only helps against knockback, would mean that the more generally explained Powered Trait (which doesn't bother to go into details but simply ignores Heavy entirely) is just badly worded.

Of course, official clarification would be appreciated, but this way things would make a lot more sense to me! ;)

Also, I really like the idea of adding the Suspensor. Its mechanic could be quite elegant, just as you described. In theory, it could even just remove the +2DN, but maintain the risk of getting knocked over -- representing that the gun's levitation mechanism makes it easier to carry, but would not affect its recoil? I'd probably lean more towards a simple reduction of the Heavy value, too, but it's an interesting alternative.


In Dark Heresy there was a piece of archeo-tech which basically worked like said suspensor. It should defenitely not be an everyday item.
Courage and Honour!

gribble
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby gribble » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:40 am

Ilias Bethomael wrote:In Dark Heresy there was a piece of archeo-tech which basically worked like said suspensor. It should defenitely not be an everyday item.

Yes, suspensors are very rare in the 40k background: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Suspensor

Lynata
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:44 am

Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Lynata » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:33 pm

Ilias Bethomael wrote: It should defenitely not be an everyday item.
Always depending on who you are, of course -- I recall them being standard issue for Deathwatch Kill Teams. ;)

jack_px
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:49 pm

Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby jack_px » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:38 pm

A little question
Page 275: Weapons with the Fire keyword and the Blast
trait ignore cover bonuses to defence.

As far as i understand, when you use a weapon with the blast quality, you target a spot and this is a fixed DN of 3 and everyone in the blast gets hit so... whats the idea of this "clarification"????

Thendoctor
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:18 am

Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Thendoctor » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:25 am

Ver, as this thread seems to be devolving into another errata/question thread maybe you can just lock it or make a new thread and lock it so that way there's a single thread that is solely about full qeustions/answers that have been hammered down?

Ilias Bethomael
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:30 am

Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:20 pm

You know, it's become so quiet here...

Asking for a locked thread just puts emphasis on the plethora of questions the rules set leaves us with. Word on an errata would really be appreciated.
Courage and Honour!


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