Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

warhammerfrpgm
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Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:00 pm

Vehicle Speeds make no sense when extrapolating things from rounds into km/hr. Now i know you are about to tell me that they are based on 8th edition tabletop. but tabletop is designed for army balance. an RPG doesn't have any real responsibility to slow down vehicles for some sort of sense of game balance.

take for example: the humble Space Marine Land Speeder. it has a cruising speed of 32m. in the book on page 319 it says cruising speed is 1/2 maximum speed(rather it says max is double cruising speed, but same thing). so if the land speeder's maximum speed is 64m is 10 seconds(roughly the length of a game turn. then it will travel 384 meters at max speed in one minute or 0.384km/min. in an hour it will travel 23,040 meters or 23.04 km/hr or roughly 13.824 mph. Am I reading this wrong? at 13.824 mph i can beat it to a target on a moped.

the only way to rationalize this is that combat cruising speed isn't land travel cruising speed. but the problem is that some vehicles like bikes and land speeders need all the speed they can get to keep their ability to avoid enemy fire.

Assume the actual maximum speed for a land speeder is 140 kph you would need to travel at 194.444 m/turn cruising speed or double that for maximum speed. in most combats on a battle field that would move a landspeeder 97 inches roughly across a board. You would have to make combat speed a quarter of max speed at best. so 97m/turn or 49 inches on a tabletop.

in the only war book(i know old system but relevant) the cruising speed of a Chimera Tank is 70kph we'll even say the top speed isn't much higher than that. so just for giggles we will put max speed at the same 70kph, since sustaining higher than that for long periods isn't advisable. we can even say combat speed should be a quarter of max speed 48.6m/turn.

Is my math way way off. or are these speeds highly silly. I understand trying to keep things consistent with 40k 8th edition, but its a roleplaying game, not the tabletop. The lore is great to keep, but the game mechanics should feel slightly different while more consistent with reality.

WhiteKnight416
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby WhiteKnight416 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:57 pm

Your Math is a little off because you've made the assumption that a round is 10 seconds but Page 49 makes it clear it's in fact six seconds so 64 m per round is 10.6 m/s or 38.4 km/h, still far from ideal

Other questions for something like a Landspeeder might involve what does the pilot do with the rest of his turn aside from fly?

Malckuss
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby Malckuss » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:43 pm

I think vehicle speeds also fall under the same reasoning that ranges do - in order to make tabletop play more dramatic and easier on those using minis.

WhiteKnight416
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby WhiteKnight416 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:48 pm

Malckuss wrote:I think vehicle speeds also fall under the same reasoning that ranges do - in order to make tabletop play more dramatic and easier on those using minis.


This is certainly a possibility, but it does underline the domino effect shortening those ranges can have.

For sake of argument I'm fine with the shorter ranges, as you point out it makes for more practical and dramatic table top play, and vehicle combat is something very few RPG systems handle well from the get go

Lynata
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby Lynata » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:13 am

Range can be pretty much hand-waved by just declaring it "effective range", anyways. The bullet does not magically stop to travel, it's just that anything beyond maximum range can, in the heat of close quarters combat, be considered an automatic miss. Although a better way to represent this would have been stacking penalties, of course.

Speed is a bit trickier, although perhaps it is just a matter of definition and we should differentiate between "Tactical" (m/turn) and "Strategic" (km/h) speed, with the caveat that Strategic speed isn't available in turn-based combat primarily for ease of gameplay (with higher speeds making traditional combat between characters difficult if not impossible), narratively justified by the pilot/driver intentionally throttling the engine to keep the vehicle within boundary of the combat zone.

In other words, if you'd go any faster, you would leave the immediate area and combat would end. As such, Tactical/Cruising speed is based not just on how fast a vehicle can move, but also how agile/maneuverable it is (hence the -2 penalty for going above).

Of course this is just an attempt at justifying and making sense of the rules. This being said, I think full maximum speed just cannot be supported in a game focusing on characters on foot. You'd just end up with crazy "jousting" scenarios where a vehicle is considered in vicinity in one turn, and already gone the next.

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Aenno
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby Aenno » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:31 am

Lynata wrote:Of course this is just an attempt at justifying and making sense of the rules. This being said, I think full maximum speed just cannot be supported in a game focusing on characters on foot. You'd just end up with crazy "jousting" scenarios where a vehicle is considered in vicinity in one turn, and already gone the next.

...one can argue it's exactly the way one should utilize bikes in combat.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

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Soviet Conscript
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby Soviet Conscript » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:21 am

warhammerfrpgm wrote:The lore is great to keep

Actually, WH40K's lore has nothing to do with it. According to the official lore (fluff) Land Speeder have a maximum speed of 350 kilometers per hour (188-189 knots) - it is directly referenced in the Imperial Armour Vol.2, Second Edition.

Lynata
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby Lynata » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:53 pm

Aenno wrote:...one can argue it's exactly the way one should utilize bikes in combat.
Absolutely! But would that be fun to play? :lol:

Soviet Conscript wrote:Actually, WH40K's lore has nothing to do with it. According to the official lore (fluff) Land Speeder have a maximum speed of 350 kilometers per hour (188-189 knots) - it is directly referenced in the Imperial Armour Vol.2, Second Edition.
In fairness, I wouldn't be surprised if this is contradicted elsewhere. Imperial Armour is a Forgeworld publication, and it wouldn't be the first time their material contradicts a codex, given how it's written by a different team.

Officially, everything ever published and officially licensed is equally "true", anyways, and all the contradictions caused by artistic freedom are a product of the material's intentional in-universe unreliability, with readers being supposed to cherrypick what they prefer. I'm not a huge fan of this policy, preferring more solid, "actual canon" like Battletech, but it's how it was explained. :roll:

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Aenno
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby Aenno » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:11 pm

Lynata wrote:Absolutely! But would that be fun to play?

I can't say for everybody. Fun isn't universal.
Personally I wouldn't declare it no-fun definitely, and I'm playing with a party who love, just love consistency.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

quindraco
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Re: Vehicle Speeds Are TOTALLY WHACK!!!

Postby quindraco » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:39 pm

Let's see how far "reasonable" house rules can take us:

"A pilot can operate a vehicle as a move action."
"Afterwards, the vehicle can move forwards up to twice its Cruising Speed, or half its Cruising Speed from a dead stop. "
"Unless otherwise stated, all character options (i.e., Aim, Suppressive Fire, etc.) may be used in vehicle combat as well."
Enter GM willing to re-interpret the list of actions, since they keep using different terminology for similar concepts.
"Thus, a character can move, then take the Run action to move again during his turn." -> A standard ("Combat") action can be a second move action, like in just about every other tabletop RPG on the planet.
This lets you double any vehicle's speed, by having the Pilot use the Run action instead of a stunt or shooting a vehicle weapon or whatever. By extension, your GM may be persuadable to let the Pilot Sprint with the vehicle, for triple speed.

So our Land Speeder has a base speed in kph of 38.4 (32*2=64 meters every 6 seconds). A charitable GM ought to let this be 76.8, and a really nice one, 115.2. Our goal is about 350, right? So it's still a third what we need it to be. Let's push it higher:

"As an action, a pilot or co-pilot can attempt a stunt to gain strategic advantage, run down enemies, or cover more ground." -> cue argument, from "cover more ground" that the co-pilot can simply be a second pilot, letting the Lander Speeder move twice (once on the pilot's turn, and once on the co-pilot's), since it has a co-pilot:

230.4 kph (384 meters per round), about 2/3 what we need. If a round were 4 seconds long, we would be done.
Well, ok. We got this far by house-ruling Sprint, which is a single action - both of our pilots have 2 simples each remaining, and can multi-action for up to 2 more actions each (currently, their general use for these will be stunts, or the co-pilot firing off a hail mary gunshot). We need about 3 more instances (1.5 per pilot) of getting to move 64 meters in order to reach about 350 kph (actually 345.6, definitely close enough, since rounds aren't exactly 6 seconds and distances are also approximate/abstract). Now we're firmly in the territory of violating the rules to keep going:

"Like a Combi-weapon permits a character to Multi-action to shoot multiple times, a vehicle's pilot may Multi-action to drive multiple times, still subject to the maximum of 3 actions from a Multi-action." That gets us four more units, maximum - if both pilots Sprint, we're going too fast. Let's slow it down:

"Just as a character may not Run and Sprint in the same turn, a vehicle may not Run and Sprint in the same round."

Hey presto. The maximum moves a vehicle can make is 18*Cruising (twice Cruising base, Pilot multi-actions Sprint, Move, Move for 5, Co-Pilot multi-actions Run, Move, Move for 4).

Unfortunately, none of this addresses Cruising Speeds that are implausible relative to other vehicles, like a Goliath Truck being 12 to a Scout Sentinel's 18 to a Leman Russ's 20, so I doubt it will work in general to achieve "reasonable" maximum speeds, but you could combine an approach like this with redoing the speeds in the core book. For example, if we assume the intent is that RPG speed is supposed to be Tabletop M*2 in meters, Goliath Trucks immediately fix to 24, which is much saner than their current value of 12, relative to other vehicles. That plus some fidgeting (e.g. you might need different math for flying vehicles vs tracked vs wheels vs walkers) will work pretty well in general, I expect. Some extremes for reference:

The slowest vehicle in WANG (assuming you fix the Goliath), a Scout Sentinel, would end up with a maximum speed of 108 kph (only 1 pilot) - modern highway speeds. I have no idea how that compares to how fast a Scout Sentinel ought to be.
The fastest, a Valkyrie, assuming the GM lets the "Navigator" co-pilot, has to be fixed to 90, not 45 (double its tabletop value of 45), ending up at 972 kph maximum. A Boeing 747 flies at 885 kph, so this is probably about right.


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