Reloads!?!?!?!????

warhammerfrpgm
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Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:23 am

it seems like characters have 3 reloads as a character not per weapon. that doesn't really make any sense. when you pack up your stuff to go out you typically figure out how much of each thing your taking. I know this was intended to abstract ammo a little bit, because ammo tracking really has the capacity to bog down the game, however, over abstracting feels really really strange. a character could have 2 ranged weapons say, a bolt pistol and a lasgun say. wouldn't they have 3 clips for the bolt pistol, and 3 clips for the lasgun. any abstracting beyond that to say 3 or 6 reloads to be used however and for whatever weapon feels really really off. any thoughts on this folks?

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Aenno
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Aenno » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:30 am

Please keep in mind that ammo isn't "abstracted a little bit"; it's abstracted as a hell. You never spend your ammo in "normal" shooting, just by using Salvo, Suppression Fire or for malfunctions, stuff like that.
Still I believe it's making Salvo weapons far less useful they have to be. For example, Heavy Bolter under this rules would shoot as it's supposed to shoot around half a minute until character would be out of ammo. That's bullshit.
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Ilias Bethomael
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:14 am

Aenno wrote:Please keep in mind that ammo isn't "abstracted a little bit"; it's abstracted as a hell. You never spend your ammo in "normal" shooting, just by using Salvo, Suppression Fire or for malfunctions, stuff like that.
Still I believe it's making Salvo weapons far less useful they have to be. For example, Heavy Bolter under this rules would shoot as it's supposed to shoot around half a minute until character would be out of ammo. That's bullshit.


That's why you bring a ammo backpack with 10 reloads when you have a heavy bolter (that is of course directly belt-feeding into the gun for style). :) I don't see a problem there. When you fire (semi) automatically you burn through ammunition pretty quickly, I suppose.
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Aenno
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Aenno » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:11 am

Ilias Bethomael wrote:That's why you bring a ammo backpack with 10 reloads when you have a heavy bolter (that is of course directly belt-feeding into the gun for style).

I'm not sure; can you do it by the rules? I mean, I know I can change anything I want to change to some way I want to change, but I'm always intrested in RAW approach here.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

WhiteKnight416
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby WhiteKnight416 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:18 am

Aenno wrote:
Ilias Bethomael wrote:That's why you bring a ammo backpack with 10 reloads when you have a heavy bolter (that is of course directly belt-feeding into the gun for style).

I'm not sure; can you do it by the rules? I mean, I know I can change anything I want to change to some way I want to change, but I'm always intrested in RAW approach here.


An Ammo backpack is explicitly written to allow a character carry 10 reloads, see page 298

If you were equipping a Tac Marine as a Devastator you could easily swap some of the grenades a tac marine gets for the Ammo backpack using the advanced war gear rules

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Aenno
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Aenno » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:23 am

You right, thanks.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

Verispex
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Verispex » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:38 am

Also, keep in mind Page 274. "Naturally, acquiring Reloads in numbers higher than three, or for particularly unique or bizarre weapons, requires the character to be in an appropriate location to make an Influence test (see Influence on page 264)."

Also, when carrying more than the default 3, see page 297 "A reload represents an abstract amount of ammunition. A character may carry on their person a number of reloads equal to 3 or their Strength/2, whichever is higher."

Also look into Ammunition Drum (Page 295), Ammunition Bandolier and the aforementioned Backpack (Page 298) as ways to increase your Reload capacity.

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quindraco
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby quindraco » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:54 am

Note that the rule for how reloads scale with strength means that everyone from S1 to S6 has the same carrying capacity - S7 is the minimum strength to carry more reloads than you start being able to carry. Since almost everything else is effectively weightless - there are no rules actually telling us things like what Strength you practically need to hoist a dead Space Marine with his suit on over your shoulder, for example - ranged attacks that use something that isn't Reloads may let you more easily achieve carrying more ammo more practically, depending on what we're talking about and how your GM rules. Since a ranged attack runs out of ammo roughly every 18 shots, that would be what you'd use to work out when this would be helpful - for example, if at S6, your GM lets you carry more than 54 throwing knives, it might be worth considering.

I think a better approach is fully houseruling the ammo rules so that 1) reloads are at least somewhat weapon specific, e.g. bolts vs laspacks vs promethium and 2) carrying more is more feasible, with the caveat that specific reload types might need to be house ruled to "weigh" as much as multiple reloads of another type (looking at you, meltagun ammo). This should meld very easily with the existing rules, as weapons already have keywords (e.g. defining bolt ammo and las ammo works as we can unambiguously tell bolt weapons from las weapons, and when you Complicate Out of Ammo, we can easily tell which ammo you lost 1 of).

Avin’tril
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Avin’tril » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:35 am

quindraco wrote:I think a better approach is fully houseruling the ammo rules so that 1) reloads are at least somewhat weapon specific, e.g. bolts vs laspacks vs promethium and 2) carrying more is more feasible, with the caveat that specific reload types might need to be house ruled to "weigh" as much as multiple reloads of another type (looking at you, meltagun ammo). This should meld very easily with the existing rules, as weapons already have keywords (e.g. defining bolt ammo and las ammo works as we can unambiguously tell bolt weapons from las weapons, and when you Complicate Out of Ammo, we can easily tell which ammo you lost 1 of).


You’re mixing up Reloads with the ammunition inside the Reload that “has no in-game effect”. (p.219). Reloads are like Glory, or Wrath, or Ruin... they are a commodity that you can expend to do something extra with your weapon. If you have different Reloads for every type of weapon then you are going to have to house-rule Encumbrance too .... nothing has a weight in this game. I prefer not to use encumbrance in ANY game I GM; it's an unrealistic extrapolation based on stat-lines. Some common sense goes a long way, and without having to do any math! ;) (So no... a normal Trooper would not be able to pick up a Space Marine in armour and throw him over his shoulder and carry them off... this makes no sense. You'd have to problem solve.)

Also, with that many Reloads are you using a Reload special action every turn? (pgs. 222-223) If so, why?

Ilias Bethomael
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:59 am

Also, do not forget the extended equipment rules at character creation (pp.182)... If you truly want it, you can always swap stuff and/or spend BP for it OR refer to the "additional starting equipment" rules-section that allows characters to somewhat circumvent the starting gear of their archetype
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