Reloads!?!?!?!????

Lynata
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Lynata » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:10 am

Radwraith wrote:My personal opinion would be three reloads per weapon carried. (NOT interchangeable!).
Apart from the increased need for tracking resources, wouldn't this also make the player characters more powerful? The method incentivizes bringing multiple weapons along to maximize damage potential via "free" special attacks.

Of course, this is something that can be balanced and accounted for by making the enemies tougher, but it's something worth keeping in the back of one's head if you want to go with that method.

gribble wrote:This bit is sort of ambiguous. While the text on pg 219 states a reload is enough ammo for a "combat scene" or "entire battle", it is never actually stated that you have to expend a reload after each combat.
Yeah, by now I think this ambiguity may actually be intentional. There's also a line about Reloads resetting at the start of every session, but that the GM may choose to forego this depending on narrative circumstances.

If I were the GM, this is where I'd make the humble lasgun shine. Not with another couple shots per magazine, but by its ability to recharge at standardized power terminals and portable generators or batteries, which should be far more common than cal .75 boltgun rounds or any number of local conventional ballistic calibers.

gribble wrote:plus the Astartes combat shotgun for some reason
:lol:
Well, it's a downside of "out of ammo" being one of many possible complications. It actually makes sense for preventing jams or malfunctions (in fact, more guns should have it), but when it comes to ignoring the trigger clicking dry, I guess you can only handwave it.

Makes me think that perhaps there should be a lesser, more widely available version of this Trait ("Rugged"?) that only ignores some complications but maintains others. Then make Steadfast exclusive to las weaponry.
Alternatively, add to the Steadfast Trait that only weapons with the Las Keyword ignore the out-of-ammo complication.

quindraco
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby quindraco » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:09 pm

Lynata wrote:
Radwraith wrote:My personal opinion would be three reloads per weapon carried. (NOT interchangeable!).
Apart from the increased need for tracking resources, wouldn't this also make the player characters more powerful? The method incentivizes bringing multiple weapons along to maximize damage potential via "free" special attacks.


Not if you enforce carrying limits (which are themselves pretty awful, since you need S7 to carry more than S1), but it's challenging to reconcile some of the weapons rules with the universe fluff without extra work - for example, you can't just have lascannons consume laspacks, since it's a mainstay of both the fluff and tabletop crunch that the reason they're so much work to lug around is that they consume more power so you need a physically large and massive battery.

Perhaps the biggest fluff contradiction in terms of reloads right now is that an Arc Pistol or Arc Rifle *can't* run out of ammo in-world; they're powered by permanent capacitors I don't think the AdMech even remembers how to charge - arc weapons and electro-priests both use these.

Lynata wrote:Makes me think that perhaps there should be a lesser, more widely available version of this Trait ("Rugged"?) that only ignores some complications but maintains others. Then make Steadfast exclusive to las weaponry.
Alternatively, add to the Steadfast Trait that only weapons with the Las Keyword ignore the out-of-ammo complication.


Steadfast has to be the first complication, which is already underwhelming, so this would be fine, but would not be typically a significant improvement to a weapon.

Lynata
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Lynata » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:10 am

quindraco wrote:Not if you enforce carrying limits (which are themselves pretty awful, since you need S7 to carry more than S1)
Wait, there's official carrying limits hidden in the book? What page are they on? I did a quick scan for "carry", "capacity" and "limited" on my PDF, but can't seem to find anything.

But yeah, any such limits come with their own downsides. Either you'll have to run with a very abstracted system that just shifts the problem elsewhere, or assign weight scores to individual items and get bogged down in more tracking.

quindraco wrote:but it's challenging to reconcile some of the weapons rules with the universe fluff without extra work - for example, you can't just have lascannons consume laspacks, since it's a mainstay of both the fluff and tabletop crunch that the reason they're so much work to lug around is that they consume more power so you need a physically large and massive battery
Well, technically speaking, lasguns should be able to be charged with laspacks, since power is just power. They'd take a ridiculous amount of packs for a single shot, and you'd have to jury-rig the capacitor, but still.

I get what you mean, though; there are better examples like shifting Reloads between a laspistol and a flamethrower. But that's just abstraction. How many novels or short stories do you recall where the author kept track of their protagonists' different magazines, clips, flasks and grenades throughout the entire book? Think of reloading as a kind of "fire and forget" situation; the amount of ammunition carried, regardless of type, only ever comes up when you actually need to reload your weapon. You check, and either you've still got 1 of X left, or you don't.

Did you play a game with the Reload system yet? I have a hunch that this may be a theoretical issue that would not actually come up during live play.

On a side note regarding arc weapons, I can't seem to find anything specific on whether permacapacitors are really an indefinite source of energy, or just capable of storing a finite amount of energy indefinitely. If it's the latter, as the term ("permanent capacitor") suggests, they'd work fine under the Reload system as is. If it's the former, the issue is still fairly easy to resolve by just going ahead and assuming that the permacapacitor needs time to recharge after expending a particularly significant charge. Kind of like the gun from BLAME. Makes a lot more sense than conjuring an infinite amount of energy out of nowhere, anyways. ;)

quindraco wrote:Steadfast has to be the first complication, which is already underwhelming, so this would be fine, but would not be typically a significant improvement to a weapon.
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. :oops:

Avin’tril
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Avin’tril » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:06 am

Lynata wrote:Wait, there's official carrying limits hidden in the book? What page are they on? I did a quick scan for "carry", "capacity" and "limited" on my PDF, but can't seem to find anything.


This little gem snuck in on page 297-298 of the Core Rulebook, wedged inconspicuously into the Wargear Chapter. This came up in our last session. One of my players asked for the ruling on the carrying capacity; couldn't remember where it was and had to look it up later... very frustrating.

Lynata wrote:I get what you mean, though; there are better examples like shifting Reloads between a laspistol and a flamethrower. But that's just abstraction. How many novels or short stories do you recall where the author kept track of their protagonists' different magazines, clips, flasks and grenades throughout the entire book? Think of reloading as a kind of "fire and forget" situation; the amount of ammunition carried, regardless of type, only ever comes up when you actually need to reload your weapon. You check, and either you've still got 1 of X left, or you don't.


I agree 100% with the general abstraction of Reloads as a whole. Your book analogy was spot on. I've used war movie analogies as well. It is a game of storytelling... I love not having to track encumbrance, or other meaningless stats. Loving the freedom. :) As far as players running out of Reloads... it's never happened. We're 10 sessions into our campaign, we've had 6 combat scenes and no worries yet.

quindraco wrote:Steadfast has to be the first complication, which is already underwhelming, so this would be fine, but would not be typically a significant improvement to a weapon.

Lynata wrote:I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. :oops:


The Steadfast weapon trait ignores the first Combat Complication in that combat. (p. 276)

Lynata
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Lynata » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:19 am

Avin’tril wrote:This little gem snuck in on page 297-298 of the Core Rulebook, wedged inconspicuously into the Wargear Chapter. This came up in our last session. One of my players asked for the ruling on the carrying capacity; couldn't remember where it was and had to look it up later... very frustrating.
Oooh.. Thanks, appreciated!

I totally missed this; will give it a read once I'm back home. :)

Avin’tril wrote:The Steadfast weapon trait ignores the first Combat Complication in that combat. (p. 276)
Ah! I got confused about the "be", wondering if quindraco might have wanted to write Trait instead of Complication, but I think I understand it now. My mistake; perhaps just a language thing. :?

I kind of agree with quindraco there about the underwhelming aspect. I now think it might be a kind of "two birds with one stone" improvement if there were two Traits that deal with Complications in different ways: Steadfast just to ignore non-ammo related ones once per encounter -- and a new "Economic"(?) Trait that ignores only the ammo complication, but does so indefinitely. The latter could be added to Las and Arc weapons, with Las weapons just getting Steadfast in addition.

quindraco
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby quindraco » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:08 pm

Lynata wrote:I kind of agree with quindraco there about the underwhelming aspect. I now think it might be a kind of "two birds with one stone" improvement if there were two Traits that deal with Complications in different ways: Steadfast just to ignore non-ammo related ones once per encounter -- and a new "Economic"(?) Trait that ignores only the ammo complication, but does so indefinitely. The latter could be added to Las and Arc weapons, with Las weapons just getting Steadfast in addition.


Las weapons can run out of ammo temporarily - you have to recharge the packs. You can definitely run out of charged packs in battlefield conditions.

Arc weapon permacapacitors received all (or most) of their charge long ago, and have simply never run dry. I don't know that we've ever gotten fluff exploring the AdMech trying to put more energy into one, or even needing to, although I'm certain, this being 40k, they lack the ability to make new ones. One of their implied downsides is that you can't modify their power output, so you can't use them for more power in a hurry than they're willing to give, and you have to "shunt" the excess if you're being given too much, or else we'd presumably see the AdMech fielding more las weapons with truly absurd rates of fire.

Lynata
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Lynata » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:05 am

quindraco wrote:Las weapons can run out of ammo temporarily - you have to recharge the packs. You can definitely run out of charged packs in battlefield conditions.
That's why it would only protect against the combat complication. They can still run dry by expending Reloads via special attacks -- it just won't happen randomly.

Going by the old Inquisitor game, lasguns can have charge packs of up to 60 shots, perhaps more. Assuming a soldier is equipped with multiple packs, it might not require a lot of suspension of disbelief to consider that (a) a trooper won't discharge hundreds of shots in a single encounter and (b) they'll simply recharge the packs in-between scenes, with the GM using the aforementioned clause from the rulebook to decide whether the player manages to recharge only one pack (keeping the weapon operable), or several (regaining spent Reloads).

quindraco wrote:I don't know that we've ever gotten fluff exploring the AdMech trying to put more energy into one, or even needing to, although I'm certain, this being 40k, they lack the ability to make new ones. One of their implied downsides is that you can't modify their power output, so you can't use them for more power in a hurry than they're willing to give, and you have to "shunt" the excess if you're being given too much, or else we'd presumably see the AdMech fielding more las weapons with truly absurd rates of fire.
Implied how, and where? Such details are the kind of minutiae that can differ between sources, especially once we'd start to look at stuff like Black Library. And as readers and players, ultimately we have the exact same creative license as the people writing official material.

In the end, Games Workshop signed off on Arc weapons in Wrath & Glory being capable of running dry. I'm just trying to provide a way for how to merge this fact with whatever people may have read in a different book, hopefully without compromising any of the sources. I know how frustrating such apparent contradictions can be; I've been there myself. ;)

quindraco
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby quindraco » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:59 pm

Lynata wrote:That's why it would only protect against the combat complication. They can still run dry by expending Reloads via special attacks -- it just won't happen randomly.

Going by the old Inquisitor game, lasguns can have charge packs of up to 60 shots, perhaps more. Assuming a soldier is equipped with multiple packs, it might not require a lot of suspension of disbelief to consider that (a) a trooper won't discharge hundreds of shots in a single encounter and (b) they'll simply recharge the packs in-between scenes, with the GM using the aforementioned clause from the rulebook to decide whether the player manages to recharge only one pack (keeping the weapon operable), or several (regaining spent Reloads).


FYI, the current complications table has a gun running dry every 18 shots, on average. I think an excellent way to improve WANG's handling of gun combat is custom complications tables so different guns run dry at different rates; you might want to experiment. Provided you are sticking to capacities which are multiples of 6, you should be able to generate any capacity from 6 shots to 216 to infinite (216 would be only having 1 entry on the complications table run the ammo out).

Lynata wrote:Implied how, and where? Such details are the kind of minutiae that can differ between sources, especially once we'd start to look at stuff like Black Library. And as readers and players, ultimately we have the exact same creative license as the people writing official material.

In the end, Games Workshop signed off on Arc weapons in Wrath & Glory being capable of running dry. I'm just trying to provide a way for how to merge this fact with whatever people may have read in a different book, hopefully without compromising any of the sources. I know how frustrating such apparent contradictions can be; I've been there myself. ;)


Implied by the universe itself - that is, once permacapacitors exist, you need a reason not to use them everywhere, for everything. You should be assuming anything that "can" be done with one is already being done, and anything that can't be isn't, within reason, and remembering that "can" is a function of many things, including dogma - e.g. it may literally be against the AdMech's religion to use a permacapacitor in a grenade, because it's sacrilege to deliberately destroy one.

The way I'd handle arc weapons running dry, if I wanted them to run dry like any other weapon, would be to declare that the permacapacitor is essentially just a box. The only way to get energy out is to plug superconductive leads into it, and the permacapacitor degrades the leads over time through heating, leading you back to a weapon that needs periodic resupply - of the burnt leads.

If I wanted them to run dry, but not need resupply, I'd rule the capacitors aren't capacitors - they're poorly understood power plants. You can get infinite energy out, but the capacitive buffer on the ouside can only hold so much, and when it runs dry, the weapon needs a rest period to recover, as the plant inside fills the buffer outside.

Lynata
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Re: Reloads!?!?!?!????

Postby Lynata » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:05 pm

quindraco wrote:FYI, the current complications table has a gun running dry every 18 shots, on average.
Well, 18 attacks -- like the tabletop game, whether this represents single shots or bursts should depend on the individual weapon. The entire concept is by necessity abstracted. How often does a player use their gun in a single combat scene or a session on average, anyways?

It's also worth pointing out that the complications table is a fallback mechanism; the "base default" for when the player and the GM cannot agree on anything else, so if you think the complications table does not make for a good representation of a gun's side-effects, suggesting an alternative is entirely within the rules.

That's not to say I don't think different complications tables based on weapon Keyword might not be an interesting thing to do, though. I think I might have fun writing such tables, too. However, a number of people might consider this to go against the game's "rules lite" approach, just like how there are no longer different crit tables for different weapons a la Dark Heresy.

I guess I'd just ask the people in the group which method they'd prefer, as there's an argument to be made regarding detail vs speed, and every player will have different thresholds as to where their priorities lie.

quindraco wrote:Implied by the universe itself - that is, once permacapacitors exist, you need a reason not to use them everywhere, for everything.
Isn't the primary reason simply that they are DAoT technology that cannot be replicated? Why would that have to do anything with the actual properties of the device?

If permacapacitors truly deliver infinite amounts of energy, surely that would be pointed out in the source -- that's what I wanted to know about, ideally with the exact wording. The name "capacitor" itself does not suggest any (re)generative abilities; if we apply contemporary definition of terminology, it would essentially be a "permanent battery", meaning one whose charge does not degrade over time as is normal.

quindraco wrote:If I wanted them to run dry, but not need resupply, I'd rule the capacitors aren't capacitors - they're poorly understood power plants. You can get infinite energy out, but the capacitive buffer on the ouside can only hold so much, and when it runs dry, the weapon needs a rest period to recover, as the plant inside fills the buffer outside.
Yes, like I suggested earlier with the BLAME gun as example. ;)


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