Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

MitchellTF
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby MitchellTF » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:14 am

Do bonuses to Traits from abilities count as "Bonus Dice". One of my players has managed to figure out a way to, essentially, break the system like Bane at a Chiropracter's convention.


Basically, she's taking EVERY DEFENCE BONUS IMAGINABLE. Now, this is going to be ridiculously expensive. (On the lines of 70 points). But...she can potentially get, for all intents and purposes, Plus Infinity to Defence. Which...is problematic.

I'm thinking the bonus is supposed to be capped per tier.

cps
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:47 am

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby cps » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:58 pm

Defense is not a dice pool and isn't subject to bonus dice restrictions. It's a derived stat calculated as Initiative -1. So pumping Initiative as high as it will go (12 in a tier 5 game, for 307 of your 500 BP, which isn't actually legal) gets you defense of 11. Full cover gets you +2 defense, the Full Defense action gets you an average of +8 for a whopping 21 defense. Very hard to hit, but that's a combat turn spent doing nothing.

Is this along the lines of what she's doing? I'd to see what options she's using. It's possible there's a rule misunderstanding in there somewhere. There is no "plus infinity" defense.

From a GM perspective, challenging a player with a build like this involves attacking them in ways that ignore their defense. That means weapons with Blast or Blaze, environmental effects, and threatening important NPCs/macguffins. Keep in mind not to undermine or invalidate their build, just enough to keep them from thinking they've "solved" combat.

MitchellTF
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby MitchellTF » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:08 pm

Unnatural Defence + Dedicant + Cover + Chameoline Cloak. And she has some other bonuses she might stack. Full Defence, of course, being one of them.

Yes, it's not plus infinity. But it is still very, VERY high when you start everything. She's also at Tier 2, Rank 2, but making long-term plans. She hasn't grabbed ALL the Talents yet.

Avin’tril
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:38 am

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby Avin’tril » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:42 pm

I can see how the Defense bonuses can add up real fast. You as a GM have a few options to counter this kind of challenge. It will take a little effort and "out of the box" thinking. Patience and planning are virtues against those that wish to break the game. ;)

1) Don't forget about Mobs and the +bonus dice to hit... more attackers might go a bit further in overcoming the Uncanny <Defense>+++ loophole.

2) Elite and Adversary Threats CAN carry Reloads and use Reloads to inflict the -1 DEF and Pinned combat effect, without spending Ruin to do it. Use this frequently. And since this is classified as an Interaction Attack it would succeed by overcoming the character's Resolve; thereby bypassing the high Defense.

3) Use steps One and Two in conjunction with LOTS of indirect fire (grenades, grenade launchers, flame weapons, Blast weapons, etc.) as you would only need to hit a space near the character at a flat DN3 to catch the DEF Hero in the blast.

4) The more this particular Hero thwarts the plans of Threats, the more the Threats will target that obstacle to their nefarious plans... and just MAY steal that Cloak when she goes unconscious. Or catch the party while sleeping/resting and overwhelm her defenses.

5) If these things fail... and the player wishes to break the game further, you would be justified in talking with the player and explaining your concerns with game balance. Because sooner or later the other players at the table start breaking the game via loopholes and such because they can't compete with the "star player". The other players may also express that they are not having much fun either when one player constantly "steals the show".

All is not lost my fellow GM. There is hope yet. :)

P.S. I'm going through a similar balance issue with a player in my group who took Duel Wielder <Ballistic Skill> + twin Arc Pistols in a Tier 2 campaign. He had chosen a Tier 1 archetype and chose the Arc Pistols as his war gear with the "Stay the Course" ascension package. He kills 95% of what he shoots at... and set a precedent for future games. "No Exotic Weapons"! ;)

Ilias Bethomael
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:30 am

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:41 pm

Avin’tril wrote:[..]
5) If these things fail... and the player wishes to break the game further, you would be justified in talking with the player and explaining your concerns with game balance. Because sooner or later the other players at the table start breaking the game via loopholes and such because they can't compete with the "star player". The other players may also express that they are not having much fun either when one player constantly "steals the show".
[...]


@MitchelTF

You know, I think this should be the first step. You are putting effort into countering a certain playstyle rather than preparing your lore and adventure (which I think is part of the fun as GM). I think your efforts are better placed with the latter.

After all, the game needs to be as entertainng for the GM as it should be for the players. And one should not allow a group's player setup to make the job just a chore that demotes you to some rules clerk in order for your players to enjoy themselves. As GM one is no mere entertainer for others. I had some players like her in the past, and if they were into system breaking and number crunching, I turned them down from joining my group. Their play style is absolutely legit, it is just not the game I as a GM want to put my time and effort into... and being a GM is often thankless enough.

PS: have a Chaos Sorcerer cast Mind Puppet on her and make the character drink cyanide (but not before the character took on the rest of the team).
Courage and Honour!

MitchellTF
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby MitchellTF » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:28 pm

Oh, I have plenty of ways to handle this. I was just wondering about this SPECIFIC exploit. Thanks for the info. :) Thanks very much Avin'Tril.

Ilias, I've already talked with them, so I have ways...but, I'm just wondering if this is legal. The Mind Puppet thing is a bit TOO evil. I actually like this player. I just noticed that Bonus Dice are capped, but this is NOT capped...which kinda got me wondering.

Avin’tril
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:38 am

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby Avin’tril » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:59 pm

MitchellTF, glad you have some options at your disposal. Glad to help in any way. :)

But as far as the game is concerned the Stat boosts are totally legal. No cap to them seems to be in place. Although, you could cap them if you wish in your games.

Ilias Bethomael
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:30 am

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:17 am

MitchellTF wrote:Oh, I have plenty of ways to handle this. I was just wondering about this SPECIFIC exploit. Thanks for the info. :) Thanks very much Avin'Tril.

Ilias, I've already talked with them, so I have ways...but, I'm just wondering if this is legal. The Mind Puppet thing is a bit TOO evil. I actually like this player. I just noticed that Bonus Dice are capped, but this is NOT capped...which kinda got me wondering.


Honestly, that day I was a bit grumpy ^^ and did not obey the Rule of Posting #6 "Never post when you are emotionally riled up" :lol: Your story struck a chord with some bad experiences I made and I felt that Avin'trils list of suggestions, helpful as it is, simply should have point 5 at the top instead ^^
Courage and Honour!

Ilias Bethomael
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:30 am

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby Ilias Bethomael » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:43 am

MitchellTF wrote:Unnatural Defence + Dedicant + Cover + Chameoline Cloak. And she has some other bonuses she might stack. Full Defence, of course, being one of them.

Yes, it's not plus infinity. But it is still very, VERY high when you start everything. She's also at Tier 2, Rank 2, but making long-term plans. She hasn't grabbed ALL the Talents yet.


What is Unnatural Defence, btw?

I only found "Unnatural <skill>" which does not cover derived Attributes like Defence.

Dedicant might work if you have an Archetype or Talent that gives "+Rank" to defence,like "Sidestep".

Max Initiative is between 8-12. At Tier 2, her maximum starting Initiative is 5 (33/100 BP she is allowed to spend on Attributes).

So I am assuming atm her Defence with active Dedicant+Sidestep (which disallows her to move and costs a total of 60BP) is 9. In Cover with a Cameleoline Cloak it is 12... for 93 BP.

Also, I'd say the Full Defense Combat Option and Sidestep do not stack in every situation, because you have to give up your entire turn for Full Defense. Sidestep and Full Defence would render her utterly immobile and inactive. Hunkering down is a thing though...

Imho, if she uses Full Defense as a Reaction after she acted, she'll be out in the open during her next turn, which she is forced to sacrifice and therefore can't use sidestep and maybe even Full Defense (or can you simply post-pone the penalty again?). I say this with a caveat, because I feel this needs clarification from USNA.

Anyhow, the Cameleoline Cloak won't work in combat, as won't cover (well, to a degree, I suppose), so swarming her with melee combatants looks like an option, as she can't escape from her assailants, 'cause sidestep and full defense disallows her to move. And either she moves and loses Dedicant+Sidestep, or she loses the benefit from her Cameleoline Cloak+Cover.

As Avin'tril said, she is a prime target for interaction attacks, too.
Courage and Honour!

cps
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:47 am

Re: Escalation Tier Bonus Dice

Postby cps » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:09 pm

edit: I should refresh before replying...
double edit: the max starting attribute value of a tier 2 campaign is 6, so even though you have the BP you can't get 7 initiative to start. This doesn't really change the conclusion though.
MitchellTF wrote:Unnatural Defence + Dedicant + Cover + Chameoline Cloak. And she has some other bonuses she might stack. Full Defence, of course, being one of them.

Yes, it's not plus infinity. But it is still very, VERY high when you start everything. She's also at Tier 2, Rank 2, but making long-term plans. She hasn't grabbed ALL the Talents yet.


To get back to the question of legality, Unnatural Defense is not a talent that exists. Defense is a derived trait from Initiative (so Dedicant does help, as it raises Initiative), but Unnatural <Skill> only applies to things listed as skills. I'd like to know what the other bonuses are.

So a tier 2 character has a limit of 100 BP to spend on attributes at chargen. You can dump 72 of that for 7 Initiative (6 Defense), another 30 BP on Dedicant to get to 8 Initiative at Ranks 1 and 2. It's worth pointing out 8 is the maximum a human can attain in this attribute and this talent will provide no additional value as the character advances in Ranks, making it of questionable utility in this situation.

Anyway, 8 Initiative averages 5 Defense on a Full Defense. Full cover is 2, +1 for the cloak. This totals to an average of 15 Defense. Adversaries for this tier have 8-9 dice for their attack roll, but even with substantial bonuses it's effectively impossible to hit this character with a direct attack.


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