Guild Mage Seal

Morgoth
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Guild Mage Seal

Postby Morgoth » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:21 pm

So I have recently read that upon completing their apprenticeships Guild Mages get a tattoe/seal on the palm of their hand to signify this. Where can I find more information about this in 5e english books? (I have nearly all of them)

Also, is this tattoe visible to everyone? Does everyone know what it means? Can it be faked?

Shinxirus
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby Shinxirus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:20 am

There will be information about the seals in Aventurian Magic I. The seal is always visible on the skin, and usually cannot be modified except at the academy that originally granted it. In regions where the guild magic tradition is common, most people will know that such a seal marks a guild mage, though not everybody will be able to tell to which academy the seal belongs. Can it be faked? Well, as long as you know what it looks like you can of course just tatoo it on your hand for example. That will deceive a simple farmer, but whether it lives up to a close and possibly magic-assissted analysis by an expert is another question altogether. Lastly, the guild/academy will be less than happy if they find out.

Morgoth
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby Morgoth » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:18 am

Guild Mages appear to have so many restrictions in this edition, but don't really get anything in return. I mean Witches and Druids don't need to have those seals correct, so they can disguise themselves easily enough.

Not to mention Guild Mages don't really get any powerful spells to make up for it; a spell or two at the highest QL level can drain a Mage for days leaving him without any magic save cantrips; and such don't seem all that powerful than a good shot by an archer with the right combat special abilities. Even utility stuff like reading thoughts can be resisted and even detected by the target.

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Lambert
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby Lambert » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:42 am

I think that is looking at it from a D&D like point of view.

A Guild magician gets a ton of status. They are often the only ones allowed to earn money from casting magics and certain places the only ones allowed to cast it. They are respected by the populus. They would command a much higher fee than a ranger or a woodsman.

Also because the guilds actually work together guild magicians find it far easier to get tuition or have spells made available to them by the local academy (for a fee or favour, but far simpler than others).

Shinxirus
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby Shinxirus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:42 am

Lambert wrote:I think that is looking at it from a D&D like point of view.

A Guild magician gets a ton of status. They are often the only ones allowed to earn money from casting magics and certain places the only ones allowed to cast it. They are respected by the populus. They would command a much higher fee than a ranger or a woodsman.

Also because the guilds actually work together guild magicians find it far easier to get tuition or have spells made available to them by the local academy (for a fee or favour, but far simpler than others).


Lambert is right. You must consider that these restrictions aren't a design choice - as in "the guild mage class has many restrictions, but gets powerful spells" - rather they represent the sociocultural laws that regulate magic in most cultures. And as Lambert pointed out, they get a lot in return:
They are protected by the Codex Albyricus,
They are the only ones allowed to legally charge money for their services,
They have access to the vast resources of their respective guild,
They are the only tradition able to write down spells
They enjoy a high social status (mechanically counting as nobility I) etc.etc.

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HEX the Dark
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby HEX the Dark » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:28 am

Funny, how here mages are considered useless (by some) and in the gem ran FB group everyone at the moment has a fit about how favoured they were in the last edition and stuff.


Morgoth wrote:Guild Mages appear to have so many restrictions in this edition, but don't really get anything in return. I mean Witches and Druids don't need to have those seals correct, so they can disguise themselves easily enough.


So can mages. It's a tattoo - a magic one made with special seals and stuff, but basically it's still just color on your skin. Wearing a glove is enough to hide it. And while it's true that the Codex Albyricus (the "how to behave and rights you have as a wizard" book by the guilds) states a guildmage has always be recognizable as such... well it's just a book and violating the codex (in this case) might have repercussions from your guild like a fee, you won't be thrown in a dungeon if you don't dress up well.

Morgoth wrote:Not to mention Guild Mages don't really get any powerful spells to make up for it; a spell or two at the highest QL level can drain a Mage for days leaving him without any magic save cantrips; and such don't seem all that powerful than a good shot by an archer with the right combat special abilities. Even utility stuff like reading thoughts can be resisted and even detected by the target.


Don't forget the basic rules are that - basic - and not all books are yet published or even translated. In 4.1 guildmages had the highest number of spells, some of them really powerful. I expect the same to happen in 5.

A last word about usefulness. A guildmage is a lot like a swiss army knife - a good one can replace a whole bunch of other tools, if you don't have a specialized one at hand. And even a bad one can be quite handy in a lot of situations, so it's generally a good idea to have one around.
A well rounded mage can combine may "skills" with his spells for which you'd usually need a more specialized character at hand.
High society gathering? Well your mage knows how to behave in high society and is an interesting conversation partner. Need to make a campfire? He can act as a lighter if necessary. Ill? Alchemy and healing plants are a bass discipline during your academy years - also, there is a spell for that. Need to open a lock and no thief around? There is spell for that. Then they are more or less the only people in Aventuria that have a kind of "professional, higher university education". Depending on your group, a mage can be very well be the only one who can read and write and speak more than one language.
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bluedragon7
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby bluedragon7 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:36 am

Also remember that a guild mage created at experienced level is really just an apprentice about 2-3 years from completing his studies.
Add 2-300 AP and have at least 20 spells, that would give you the look and feel of a 4th edition mage.
Yes, they were that much better due to their academic education but they were also that much older than other characters entering the game.
In 5th Edition you basically play a guild mage who is not yet a guild mage, someone who stopped studying to see the world outside of his school walls.
If you keep that in mind the perceived lesser ability at start makes sense.
If you want to get a better feel for how any character would look right after finishing his education, for example to create NPCs, you can use this approach to calculate the starting AP:
->800 AP
->Race AP(Chapter 4, TDE Core, also listed on page 40, TDE Core)
->Cultural Package AP (Chapter 5, TDE Core, also listed on pages 41-42, TDE Core)
->Profession AP (Chapter 6, TDE Core, also listed (without variants) on page 159, TDE Core)
->AP cost of all prerequisite advantages and special abilities required by the profession.
->When playing with additional rules (Aventurian Compendium, Aventurian Magic), include the AP cost of suitable combat styles/sorcery styles/liturgical styles.

Shinxirus
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby Shinxirus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:48 am

bluedragon7 wrote:Also remember that a guild mage created at experienced level is really just an apprentice about 2-3 years from completing his studies.
Add 2-300 AP and have at least 20 spells, that would give you the look and feel of a 4th edition mage.
Yes, they were that much better due to their academic education but they were also that much older than other characters entering the game.
In 5th Edition you basically play a guild mage who is not yet a guild mage, someone who stopped studying to see the world outside of his school walls.
If you keep that in mind the perceived lesser ability at start makes sense.
If you want to get a better feel for how any character would look right after finishing his education, for example to create NPCs, you can use this approach to calculate the starting AP:
->800 AP
->Race AP(Chapter 4, TDE Core, also listed on page 40, TDE Core)
->Cultural Package AP (Chapter 5, TDE Core, also listed on pages 41-42, TDE Core)
->Profession AP (Chapter 6, TDE Core, also listed (without variants) on page 159, TDE Core)
->AP cost of all prerequisite advantages and special abilities required by the profession.
->When playing with additional rules (Aventurian Compendium, Aventurian Magic), include the AP cost of suitable combat styles/sorcery styles/liturgical styles.


Well, I wouldn't quite subscribe to that. It is true that Guild mages in 4.1 were much more powerful, but that's just a difference between editions. A guild mage created at experienced level is definitely meant to have reached the rank of Adeptus Minor, as indicated by the fact that they carry a seal and have completed the binding of the staff - both of which are done when graduating. The age range for the experienced level also fits into that. So a guild mage will already have graduated from his or her academy, albeit with little experience of the outside world.

bluedragon7
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby bluedragon7 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:58 am

5th edition is built on the purpose of creating equivalent characters. If that is your goal in the group, fine. If you want to play closer to the setting you can’t have that as the setting isn’t fair. Some people get a more valuable education than others, some start adventuring later in life with lots of experience in their field but not so much in adventuring skills.
My approach (if you also include ageing) can be used to reflect that nicely.
I don’t think it had been a good idea in 5th edition to submit even the decades of lore to the goal of equality. For me competitive gaming is way not as important to this game as is having the setting with all its history.
To me, since I have been playing since 1st edition, someone with only 7 spells is not a fully educated mage. 20-30 (though quite a few of them not necessarily at high levels) is what we had the last few editions and what makes sense to me. If anyone can’t bear to have a single AP less add the following to the approach I presented in my previous post:

-> for a balanced group determine the highest AP of any participating characters as above and give that sum to all players. The additional AP represent additional experience gained after completing the characters education. While the mages was still studying at his academy the merchant was already traveling across aventuria for many years.

Xathos
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Re: Guild Mage Seal

Postby Xathos » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:17 pm

I do not think that would work very well for a campaign. The goal to me in TDE is to develop characters over time. I do agree that the Arcane Energy pool for wizards is a bit on the low side, but I also think that the English version is going to see some upgrades to that with the release of additional information.

I've been playing Pathfinder for the past 2 years and the arcane caster is the most powerful class group in the system. It just cannot stay balanced with the power output and the extreme number of spells available to wizards. That is also a gear driven game system whereas it seems TDE is the exact opposite. It is character driven. Wizards have power, but they have severe limitations as well. Even though I primarily specialize in wizard type characters, it is refreshing to realize I need to develop a more rounded character.


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