The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

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TorgHacker
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The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:10 pm

"The Nile Empire is Better at Everything."

So this comment has come up multiple times in the last little bit.

I'm not sure I agree, but I'm willing to hear the arguments for...and against it. And that's the thing. For those who advocate that the statement above is true, I want to hear what you think the best argument is that it's false.

If it really is the case, we can see if something needs to be done. Because if it is true, it can be true generally, or true specifically. That is, there's a general thing that's being an issue...or if it's specific elements such as Perks, spells or miracles.

Because right now is the time to tweak Nile Empire things, if they need tweaking. If it's a case of the Living Land not being 'good' enough, that requires a different solution.
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby fougerec » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:13 pm

It would be easier to deal with specifics than a general "better at everything" because I haven't found that to be the case at all.

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:19 pm

fougerec wrote:It would be easier to deal with specifics than a general "better at everything" because I haven't found that to be the case at all.


That's just it. The comment keeps being "everything".

There's no question that the Nile is going to do some things better, and perhaps, as mentioned in another thread, there are certain archetypes from say, the Living Land that should be 'better' that aren't. But that's more of a problem with the Living Land than the Nile Empire, and since the general bias is "don't make things overpowered" because

a) You don't want things that are broken to get into the game and
b) You want to avoid the inevitable "Oh they're getting into power creep"

it's possible some abilities aren't as good as they could be in the Living Land.

But that doesn't mean that the Nile Empire is better at 'everything'.
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Kuildeous » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:23 pm

I'm not particularly bothered by this, but I'll at least get the ball rolling. If people agree with this, then it warrants some looking into. If nobody agrees with it, then it's likely a nonproblem.

I felt that the perk for increased unarmed damage covers a lot of ground in Torg. It allows for the knock-off martial artists without requiring a huge expenditure for other elements. And if you want those things, then Pan Pacifica can fit the bill.

So I've never seen a "need" for ki perks to be in Nile Empire. I'm not opposed to them, but I could see an argument that the unarmed perk is good enough for a fisticuffs character. The Masked Crusader from the archetypes has he perk, and it fits fine for him.

I've seen a little grumbling about Nile martial arts watering down what make Pan Pacifica special, but that grumble seems to have died down. Is this still a concern for anybody? I can certainly see that point of view, but I've not seen enough of the rules to truly form a strong opinion on it.
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby fougerec » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:44 pm

Kuildeous wrote:I've seen a little grumbling about Nile martial arts watering down what make Pan Pacifica special, but that grumble seems to have died down. Is this still a concern for anybody? I can certainly see that point of view, but I've not seen enough of the rules to truly form a strong opinion on it.


I think the problem with that is that we have no information on Pan-Pacifica martial arts so there's nothing to compare it to. Maybe those Martial Arts are amazingly awesome enough to make the Nile ones a cool but not as cool power. I'd much rather not have Nile martial arts and then in the Pan-Pacifica book maybe a sidebar about including them in other cosms in some less cool way.

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Spatula » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:52 pm

Many of the pulp powers are really strong perks. Like, really strong. What character wouldn't benefit from having +6 to their primary skill? Sure, there are other perks that you're giving up to get that, but IMO nothing really comes close in terms of boosting one's effectiveness. And the character will probably have limitations, but when those trigger they just knock the character down to the realm of everyone else - they still have a 10+ attribute and 3+ adds in the skill. There is a downside with disconnecting outside of the Nile, but that's already a danger for many characters acting outside their home reality.

From a mechanical perspective, it's hard to say why a character who's from the Nile shouldn't take Super-Attribute/Skill at some point. Or why a character that qualifies for Cosm Adaptation shouldn't chose Pulp Powers and take those perks as follow-ups (and maybe Flight, too).

So I think in context of the ki powers, it looks like you could make a PP martial artist, or make a Nile MA who is a perk or two behind but is much harder to hit and hits more often and does more damage. Eventually the Nile MA will have caught up, perk-wise, because there's only so many perks that are relevant to a MA. The PP martial artist has a tech advantage but that isn't so relevant when you're relying on unarmed attacks. Heck, the Law of Masks gives the Nile MA a better armor value (+3, right?) than your average PP MA would have (+2 from irimesh).

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Gargoyle » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:55 pm

Kuildeous wrote:I'm not particularly bothered by this, but I'll at least get the ball rolling. If people agree with this, then it warrants some looking into. If nobody agrees with it, then it's likely a nonproblem.

I felt that the perk for increased unarmed damage covers a lot of ground in Torg. It allows for the knock-off martial artists without requiring a huge expenditure for other elements. And if you want those things, then Pan Pacifica can fit the bill.

So I've never seen a "need" for ki perks to be in Nile Empire. I'm not opposed to them, but I could see an argument that the unarmed perk is good enough for a fisticuffs character. The Masked Crusader from the archetypes has he perk, and it fits fine for him.

I've seen a little grumbling about Nile martial arts watering down what make Pan Pacifica special, but that grumble seems to have died down. Is this still a concern for anybody? I can certainly see that point of view, but I've not seen enough of the rules to truly form a strong opinion on it.


Honestly nothing is a deal breaker for me, I see the cosm books as options anyway, and lots of times things that look bad on paper are fine at the table.

But pulp martial arts is still a pet peeve for me. It sort of takes away from what little bit of perk specialization that Pan-Pacifica had going for it and I feel it steps on toes. I like how Pulp Sorcerers are handled better and would prefer something similar to that. The existence of a Mind Reading perk does the same to a lesser degree. Part of this is that the Pan-Pacifica book isn't out yet and there wasn't much for it in the Core book. But that doesn't help in the next couple of years.

I think the biggest beefs I've seen with "Nile Empire is better at everything" stem from builds that use Super Attribute and Super Skill as a foundation though, not really from the upcoming cosm book. It's also part of the nature of the genre. It has pulp powers, magic, and miracles. It's tech isn't high but gadets and gizmos can make it feel like it's high tech now and then. It doesn't really lack much. I guess this why I take exception to it also having ki powers or pulp powers emulating psionics. Pulp genre covers a lot and sometimes I think it may be too much for the good of this game and that Torg's interpretation of it should be a little more narrow.
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Daedra18 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:58 pm

I never played oTorg, so keep that in mind with my feedback.

With the core book, it seems like NE characters just have the highest number of options. Sure, they don't get psionics; but they get access to basically every other type of character option that is available.

Nile feels far more fleshed out, for character creation at least, than any of the other cosm. Especially compared to Tharkold and the Cyberpapacy. Cybernetics seem really interesting, but there doesn't seem to be anything overly unique in what the cybernetics give you. If i wanted to play a character with cybernetics, why not just use pulp powers, with gadget/costume limitations as weird science, to give me the same effects? I guess a Tharkold character might have a slight edge because their cybernetics would not risk disconnection in two cosms (Tharkold and the Cyberpapacy) while the Pulp/cyber character would only be safe in NE.

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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:05 pm

Spatula wrote:Heck, the Law of Masks gives the Nile MA a better armor value (+3, right?) than your average PP MA would have (+2 from irimesh).


No, for someone who's a Martial Artist, it's probably no more than a +2, and easily could be +1 only. Plus that only works while in the Nile Empire.
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Re: The Nile Empire is Better at Everything

Postby Spatula » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:17 pm

TorgHacker wrote:
Spatula wrote:Heck, the Law of Masks gives the Nile MA a better armor value (+3, right?) than your average PP MA would have (+2 from irimesh).


No, for someone who's a Martial Artist, it's probably no more than a +2, and easily could be +1 only. Plus that only works while in the Nile Empire.

Ah, OK. I thought I read that it was something Nile characters could take with them as a passively contradictory item. My mistake on that count.


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