Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Lynata
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Lynata » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:35 pm

jack_px wrote:It does, thanks, although i always though about the thrown grenades as a one time use item that was apart of the reload sistem, because the start wargear of the space marines for example is a fixed number of grenades.
That bit is indeed confusing. Perhaps the numbered grenades are meant as "free" grenade-only special attacks that would not consume one of your Reloads as normal? Or are any grenades past the initial "unlock" maybe just "decoration" until you get hold of a launcher?

Personally, I'm actually quite relieved to see grenades use the Reload system, making them function like an "unlock" for a new attack ability, deducting 1 Reload every time you use them -- similar to using Suppressive Fire or Multi-attack. It prevents having to rebuy grenades under an acquisition system that frankly doesn't seem designed for micro-management of minor repeat purchases. Given how you have to surrender the ability to use Reloads for other special attacks, I don't feel this would be overpowered.

Now I also have a question about Special Ammo and whether it applies only to a single attack or until the weapon has to be reloaded as per the normal rules, though. Page 274 suggests the effect from Special Ammo would persist until the Reload is expended (which without further clarification sounds like using a special attack or the weapon clicks dry as a result of a bad roll), but page 220 says the Reload is considered expended "once the special ammunition has been fired".

Doesn't this interpretation sound a bit weak? Special Ammo just isn't worth acquiring when it's only good for a single shot, especially considering it's actually cheaper to get a whole new plasma gun than a single attack worth of "AP -2" Kraken rounds for your boltgun.

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CorwynNiTessine
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby CorwynNiTessine » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:44 pm

Suggestions for clarifications/errata:

Page 299: The "Light" keyword for armor is not defined (it's a keyword on some of the Eldar armor).

Page 265: The sentence "First, the GM should take into account the Rarity rating of the item or service (see Rarity on page 264)" should actually be "(See Rarity on page 267)".

Page 90 and 92: The concept of "Outsider" for Eldar and Orks is a bit odd (+2 DN for Interaction tests with Imperium keyword). Those races are just as xenophobic to humans, yet Humans don't have the Outsider game-mechanics when interacting with those races. I'd either do away with it completely (let the GM set the penalty based on context), or add a similar game-mechanic for Humans when interacting with Eldar and Ork keywords.

Page 127: Space Marine Scouts have "3 frag grenades". That should be changed to just "frag grenades" since they use the Salvo "-" and Reload mechanism, as you've clarified. This is also similar to Ork Kommandos that just list "stikkbombs" without saying how many.

Page 129 and 130: Tactical and Primaris Space Marines have "3 frag and krak genades". That should be changed to just "frag and krak grenades".

Page 146: Eldar Corsair have "3 plasma grenades". That should be changed to just "plasma grenades".

Page 279: Plasma Grenades should have a Value of "3 Common" since they match Frag Grenades in almost all regards: game-mechanics and lore. In the table top they are just as common (for that race, which is what Influence tests in W&G are always in context of) among rank-and-file troops. There's a bit of human-bias sometimes in the rules *ahem* ;)

Verispex
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Verispex » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:56 pm

Light is a keyword, not a trait, so it's a general descriptor, not a reference to a game mechanic.

As for 3 Grenades, I believe the following to be true (Verification Pending currently) Any "disposable" weapon (like grenades or missiles as examples) I believe can be bought multiple times so you can use them that many times before the reload rule kicks in. So if they have 3 <type> Grenades, they should be able to use them 3 times before you start expending your reloads.

I hope this helps.

- Donavin
Wrath & Glory Community Manager

GothicSilencer
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby GothicSilencer » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:02 am

Verispex wrote:As for 3 Grenades, I believe the following to be true (Verification Pending currently) Any "disposable" weapon (like grenades or missiles as examples) I believe can be bought multiple times so you can use them that many times before the reload rule kicks in. So if they have 3 <type> Grenades, they should be able to use them 3 times before you start expending reloads


Or do they have 3 whole instances of the weapon? And thus 9 total reloads? For rules consistancy, either they are 3 consumable grenades that do not use the reload rules and must be rebought, or you have 3 grenade weapons, each with it's own set of reloads, like having a character with 2 bolt pistols. You don't split your 3 reloads between your 2 bolt pistols, you have 6 total bolt pistol reloads. That, or the number 3 needs to be removed from in front of the grenades, allowing them to use the reload system as normal, which is what appears to have happened with Ork Kommamdos' Stikkbombs.

jack_px
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby jack_px » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:53 am

I honestly think that the idea of the hand grenade is that it is an expendable item, and the weapons (which throw grenades) been use like any other weapon.

warhammerfrpgm
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:29 pm

Aenno wrote:
Verispex wrote:
jack_px wrote:
I'm afraid not exactly. Every grenade launcher in game have Salvo rating. It's two of them, and both have Salvo 1. So, if this rule doesn't apply to every grenade launcher in-game, why it's speak about grenade launchers at all?

Also, is it ok that Tier 1 character can start with a weapon with AP -2, Blast (Small) and 16+3ED dmg?


Tier 1 Astra Militarum normally have access to special weapons but not heavy weapons. Although if you allowed there to be a heavy trooper in a unit and made heavy weapons team member a valid talent for 20(maybe 25)+cost of equipment, then it would be possible. Even then. They wouldn't have more than 3 krak missiles and 3 frag missiles per session. afterwards they would have to use a lasgun. furthermore the heavy weapons troopers in Astra Militarum units worked as a team. The guy with the heavy weapon wasn't big or tough enough to just walk around have the weapon and all the ammo. typically the one guy had the weapon and a single shot/clip/reload in the weapon. the other guy has the ammo in a backpack or he carries it. One of the things i miss from only war was its use of comrades. and i figure that having the comrade with the PC, or make the loader/ammo mule another PC. Perhaps what comes with Heavy weapons team member is the benefit of the follower who travels with PC. though i figure that could add complications and way more rules than desired.

The concern i have is with the Heavy Flamer. Heavy Stubber is Heavy 4(this is used by gangers in necromunda so not as heavy nor as recoil nasty as other weapons)
heavy Bolter is Heavy 4(bigger, nastier weapon than a stubber, like a stubber on steroids. yet still heavy 4.this should be heavy 6 in my mind. I especially believe because a heavy weapons team is always shown with heavy bolter on tripod or wheeled platform)
Heavy Flamer is Heavy 6 (Double sized flame thrower with a larger backpack, and it is used by Astra Militarum Veterans and command squad members so should be 4 or 5(putting it in range of tier 2 maxed strength characters)
Autocannon is Heavy 8. (feels about right. its a big gun)
Lascannon is Heavy 8. (again feels right. if anything the autocannon probably has more recoil than a las weapon, so theoretically could have gone for Heavy 7 but not necessary.
Missile Launcher is Heavy 6. (feels about right.)
We don't have Mortars in here, and in my opinion it probably isn't keeping with any sort of serious heroic theme. and then you have to work in logic for more indirect fire, as well as bonuses for gear that gives better accuracy. could characters with really high intelligence have some sort of math savant talent to calculate complex trajectories on the fly?

So i think it should go:
Heavy Stubber 4-not even used by guard infantry due to being underpowered to the hvybolter/missile launcher/lascannon/autocannon options
Heavy Flamer 5- not even part of a heavy team but vets and command squad members can take 1 each and without a secondary guy to help.
Heavy Bolter 6
Missile Launcher 6
Lascannon 7-8
Autocannon 8


Also To your point on missile launchers. I have built 3 weapon specialists and three regular soldiers with some other skills(a corporal for the weapon specialist team), the guy interested in advancing towards medic, and a guy trending towards comms operator. They all have decently better stats and skills than the weapon specialists. presumably that would be the same with a heavy weapons soldier/team. along with the added challenge in tier 1 characters moving around with the heavy weapon. The Tier 1 Character in a heavy team isn't going to be able to fire the weapon without bracing. and still it will be higher than their strength so they still get a shooting penalty. they would have to set it up in its mount. kneel on the ground. this will all require that character and their counterpart. they need to manage more prep than anyone else in the squad. and again only six ammo until they can get their ammo allotment refreshed or manage more carrying capacity. There are a lot of ways to overcome that. they can use build points to buy extra reloads, but that backpack doesn't exactly hold a lot of shots. maybe an upgraded one with 8 or 10 shots as they advance.

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Aenno
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Aenno » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:28 am

warhammerfrpgm wrote:Tier 1 Astra Militarum normally have access to special weapons but not heavy weapons.

1st Tier Inquisitional Acolyte gain ranged weapon of Value 5 or less of up to Uncommon rarity (must have the Imperium keyword). Voss Pattern Grenade Launcher fits. Yes, sorry, I saw wrong line (krak missle instead krak grenade), it's "just" 14+2ED.
If it uses reloads, not actual grenades, it means player has unlimited (at least as unlimited as melta or lasgun) grenades with DC 3 on hit, 14+2ED damage and AP -2, with small blast and range of 50 meters. And if it uses actual grenades, the very point of GL using reloads is wrong.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

quindraco
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby quindraco » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:58 am

Aenno wrote:
warhammerfrpgm wrote:Tier 1 Astra Militarum normally have access to special weapons but not heavy weapons.

1st Tier Inquisitional Acolyte gain ranged weapon of Value 5 or less of up to Uncommon rarity (must have the Imperium keyword). Voss Pattern Grenade Launcher fits. Yes, sorry, I saw wrong line (krak missle instead krak grenade), it's "just" 14+2ED.
If it uses reloads, not actual grenades, it means player has unlimited (at least as unlimited as melta or lasgun) grenades with DC 3 on hit, 14+2ED damage and AP -2, with small blast and range of 50 meters. And if it uses actual grenades, the very point of GL using reloads is wrong.


An autocannon (5 Common) is also available, in terms of actual heavy weapons - in fact, since 5 Common is so easy to get, one of the best ways to get a great gun into the party at Tier 1 is a Sister Hospitaller, where you have the party fixer get her an autocannon after chargen is over (getting any kind of power armour post-chargen with a T1 fixer is much harder).

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Aenno
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby Aenno » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:00 am

quindraco wrote:An autocannon (5 Common) is also available, in terms of actual heavy weapons - in fact, since 5 Common is so easy to get, one of the best ways to get a great gun into the party at Tier 1 is a Sister Hospitaller, where you have the party fixer get her an autocannon after chargen is over (getting any kind of power armour post-chargen with a T1 fixer is much harder).

That's true; but Autocannon doesn't have Blast, haven't Assault (allowing to attack twice per turn with a penalty), and use enemy defence as DC instead of solid 3.
I argue fiercely, but I never believed disagreement should be capital offence.

I'm editing my posts often. English isn't my native language, and I'm doing a lot of mistakes; that, with thoughtful rereading, I often found and want to edit.

warhammerfrpgm
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Re: Rules Clarifications (Under Construction)

Postby warhammerfrpgm » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:16 pm

Aenno wrote:
warhammerfrpgm wrote:Tier 1 Astra Militarum normally have access to special weapons but not heavy weapons.

1st Tier Inquisitional Acolyte gain ranged weapon of Value 5 or less of up to Uncommon rarity (must have the Imperium keyword). Voss Pattern Grenade Launcher fits. Yes, sorry, I saw wrong line (krak missle instead krak grenade), it's "just" 14+2ED.
If it uses reloads, not actual grenades, it means player has unlimited (at least as unlimited as melta or lasgun) grenades with DC 3 on hit, 14+2ED damage and AP -2, with small blast and range of 50 meters. And if it uses actual grenades, the very point of GL using reloads is wrong.


grenade launcher model by games workshop shows guy with a grenade launcher with some sort of drum or barrel. i have several of the minis. so since the model and 40k is the source material i would argue the reloads make perfect sense. You could limit the character to initially having 3 reloads of frag but only one load of krak. but any way you do it, its a drum of grenades. these are designed for the launcher so your hand held ones wont work in the grenade launcher. besides is it all that silly to see a multi grenade firing grenade launcher. we have that technology NOW in the real world. also the voss pattern grenade launcher is only a range of 40m. the tempestus scions version is 50m. this weapon while powerful makes perfect sense. also, to get the weapon a tier 1 astra militarum character sacrifices stats to do so. i don't care about inquisitorial PC's as that isn't the campaign i am running so isn't my concern. that said. i see your concerns, but i don't consider a grenade launcher any nastier than a plasma gun or melta gun. a flamer by all accounts is a very nasty weapon. in fact imagine a flamer using the 7th edition flamer template. imagine how many minis you could get under it or partially under it. there is a reason these weapons are nasty. they can deal a lot of damage. make sure you have large mobs of basic troops to soak up some of that.


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