Electric katana/longbow questions

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ShirtlessOBrien
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Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:46 pm

1. The core rules p148 state that an electric katana can be used as a normal katana when not energized. When used this way, does it count as Tech 24 or Tech 12 for the purposes of contradictions, disconnection effects and so on?

2. Suppose I am a Core Earth person walking around Core Earth with a deactivated electric katana on my belt. I disconnect for some unrelated reason (maybe a surge happened or I tried to use some other bit of out-of-axiom gear). Does the electric katana become unusable or ghost-like while I am disconnected, or does it remain usable as a katana? Obviously while disconnected I could not turn it on, because that would be creating a contradiction and you cannot do that while disconnected.

3. The electric longbow does not say it can be used when not energised, so by RAW it cannot. But I thought it was worth checking whether people (officially or otherwise) thought it ought to not work at all when not energised, work as a Tech 22 compound bow when not energised, work as a Tech 13 composite longbow when not energised, or work as a Tech 9 long bow when not energised.

I think the answers most consistent with the established canon are Tech 24, unusable and unusable respectively. When a Core Earth rifle disconnects in Aysle the whole thing disconnects, you aren't left holding a connected wooden stock attached to a disconnected magazine and firing mechanism. So by the same logic the whole katana should disconnect not just the fancy electronic bits.

But on the other hand it would be cool and in-theme for the cosm that flies under the radar to have figured out ways of making weapons that can pass for and function as medieval weapons until you switch them on. And if I glued a Tech 24 microchip to an edeinos' spear when they weren't looking, it seems a bit weird to say that throwing the spear is now a contradiction for them and the spear will vanish 20% of the time. So there is at least an argument for saying that a deactivated electric katana is a tech 12 sword with some tech 12 silicon and gold and whatnot in it that is not a contradiction in and of itself, until you turn it on and it starts doing tech 24 things.

utsukushi
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby utsukushi » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:02 pm

Personally I would rule right in between those... I think using it as a normal katana lets it fly under the Everlaw's radar as a Tech 12 item, but if you do disconnect with it, it does become unusable because it is a Tech 24 item. In my view the use of it as a regular katana isn't pushing the boundary -- but just like your high tech armor, or that Electronic Lockpick in your pocket, will start to fade away even though you're not `actively using' them, if you DO catch the Everlaw's eye (by creating a Contradiction some other way or just from a Surge), then it shuts down everything.

The Electric Longbow looks to be more a mater of advanced materials than just the electronics like the Katana, so I don't think it's accidental that it doesn't work the same way... I'd say turning it off probably makes it like the Tech 22 Compound Bow -- you lose the AP from the ion technology in the arrowheads, but the bow is still made of materials unavailable at lower axioms.

Staffan
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Staffan » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:01 pm

RAW, I'm pretty sure it's Tech 24, unusable, and unusable.

Look at it like this: if I was trying to bash someone over the head with the stock of an AK-47, the GM would probably rule that that's using the weapon as an improvised club, and use those stats for the attack (damage +2, unwieldy). But it's still a Tech 22 item, so if I tried it in Aysle I'd run the chance of disconnecting, and I certainly couldn't do it if I already had disconnected in Aysle.

The advantage of a non-energized electric katana is that it's more subtle (it glows when energized), and it works even when you're out of juice (although there's no "ammo" for powered melee weapons in TORG). It doesn't let you get around the Everlaws, though.

fougerec
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby fougerec » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:33 pm

I assume that the Tech 24 katana is made of advanced metal alloys etc. Much as how there are bullet proof vests that work in the Nile Empire just fine, but modern kevlar vests are a contradiction.

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ShirtlessOBrien
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:31 pm

Staffan wrote:Look at it like this: if I was trying to bash someone over the head with the stock of an AK-47, the GM would probably rule that that's using the weapon as an improvised club, and use those stats for the attack (damage +2, unwieldy). But it's still a Tech 22 item, so if I tried it in Aysle I'd run the chance of disconnecting, and I certainly couldn't do it if I already had disconnected in Aysle.


Under RAW this seems correct, the rules on p178 only care if the "tool or ability" has the wrong axiom, and an AK-47 is definitely the tool used when bashing someone with an AK-47, and is definitely has a tech axiom which is too high. Hence it is a disconnection risk, and if you had already disconnected it would be an unusable ghost AK-47.

In the interests of simplicity I think it is probably best if a Tech 24 thing is a Tech 24 thing, no ifs or buts, switched on or switched off. Under that view the electric katana "maybe be used as" a normal katana but that does not make it a normal Tech 12 katana. The nano-circuitry in the blade is always there and always a contradiction, in the same way the precision-made parts and rifling in an AK-47 make it a contradiction in Aylse.

There's some potential fun in disconnected Ord soldiers being able to bash people with rifle butts or disconnected techno-ninjas still being able to swing their electric katanas as normal weapons but I think allowing that fun makes things too complicated.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:07 pm

ShirtlessOBrien wrote:
Staffan wrote:Look at it like this: if I was trying to bash someone over the head with the stock of an AK-47, the GM would probably rule that that's using the weapon as an improvised club, and use those stats for the attack (damage +2, unwieldy). But it's still a Tech 22 item, so if I tried it in Aysle I'd run the chance of disconnecting, and I certainly couldn't do it if I already had disconnected in Aysle.


Under RAW this seems correct, the rules on p178 only care if the "tool or ability" has the wrong axiom, and an AK-47 is definitely the tool used when bashing someone with an AK-47, and is definitely has a tech axiom which is too high. Hence it is a disconnection risk, and if you had already disconnected it would be an unusable ghost AK-47.

In the interests of simplicity I think it is probably best if a Tech 24 thing is a Tech 24 thing, no ifs or buts, switched on or switched off. Under that view the electric katana "maybe be used as" a normal katana but that does not make it a normal Tech 12 katana. The nano-circuitry in the blade is always there and always a contradiction, in the same way the precision-made parts and rifling in an AK-47 make it a contradiction in Aylse.

There's some potential fun in disconnected Ord soldiers being able to bash people with rifle butts or disconnected techno-ninjas still being able to swing their electric katanas as normal weapons but I think allowing that fun makes things too complicated.


Yeah, there's madness to be had in that direction. It's an edge case at best, and causes the least damage treated as Tech 24 no matter what.
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mica
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby mica » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:54 am

So if you have already disconnected the AK-47/whatever will be flashing between its original form and something appropriate and non-contradicting. Would it then be sensible to use the stats of the non-contradicting item, e.g. improvised club if used as a bashing tool or just rule that it flashes between realities and may even temporarily disappear so is simply unusable altogether until either reconnection or full transformation and it becomes fixed appropriate to the new axiom...

Note to self, only wear low axiom undergarments.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby TorgHacker » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:05 am

mica wrote:So if you have already disconnected the AK-47/whatever will be flashing between its original form and something appropriate and non-contradicting. Would it then be sensible to use the stats of the non-contradicting item, e.g. improvised club if used as a bashing tool or just rule that it flashes between realities and may even temporarily disappear so is simply unusable altogether until either reconnection or full transformation and it becomes fixed appropriate to the new axiom...

Note to self, only wear low axiom undergarments.


It's unusable until you reconnect or fully transform.
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fougerec
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby fougerec » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:04 am

mica wrote:So if you have already disconnected the AK-47/whatever will be flashing between its original form and something appropriate and non-contradicting. Would it then be sensible to use the stats of the non-contradicting item, e.g. improvised club if used as a bashing tool or just rule that it flashes between realities and may even temporarily disappear so is simply unusable altogether until either reconnection or full transformation and it becomes fixed appropriate to the new axiom...

Note to self, only wear low axiom undergarments.


I just say it's not usable at all because I have players who will try to time the flashes so they can club someone with their AK while it's solid. I'm not going to track that. So short and simple. You disconnect and your contradictory stuff does as well and is 100% non-usable in any capacity.

Sword of Spirit
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Sword of Spirit » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:31 am

Isn't there a place in the rulebook that gives an example of a disconnected rifle (assault rifle I think) in the Living Land just being a club? Or am I misremembering and that was referring to a transformed rifle?


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