Electric katana/longbow questions

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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby TorgHacker » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:08 pm

mica wrote:I was under the impression that for ords there is still a difference between disconnection and transformation.

So while they may disconnect when trying to fire a rifle in the LL or fix the boat with a wrench they were not actually transformed.

Example - the disconnected marines in the lifeboat are more in tune with the LL and beginning to wonder why they have an odd looking club in their hands but kind of recall that it is a gun, same thing for the mechanic with modern clothes and a wrench. At that point though they are simply disconnected core-earth.

They still presumably have some possibility and if they step into a hard point area will reconnect but are not instinctively fighting the new reality like storm knights so their gear will not actually flicker between realities.



Correct. In my (admittedly not technically official, because it's not on paper, but I'm the one most to blame for the reality rule details) 'understanding' of how this works is that there are two pipes provided by the Everlaw of Two that connects a person to their reality. The first is high bandwidth, and this provides Possibility Energy to do contradictions... (it is a lower bandwidth than reality-rated folks though).

When you're disconnected, the Everlaw of One has cut that pipe provided by the Everlaw of Two.

But there's a second connection that is extremely low bandwidth but still provides a connection to their home reality. It's not enough to allow an Ord (or a disconnected Storm Knight) to do contradictions when disconnected. But it's enough to allow Storm Knights to reconnect even outside their reality, and allows Ords to connect when they're inside theirs.

The phasing in and out does represent the conflict between the Everlaw of One attempting to transform the character and the Everlaw of Two to reconnect them. And eventually one of the two will win. There's no scenario where a Storm Knight disconnects and cannot reconnect. He either reconnects or transforms...one or the other.

Everlaw of Two: "Here's Possibility energy! Do that magic!"

Everlaw of One: "Do do do ... wait....none of that!" <snip>

Everlaw of Two: "Okay, I'll just plug you in again..."

Everlaw of One: "NO YOU WON'T"

Two: "YES I WILL"

One: "NO YOU WON'T"

<if the Storm Knight reconnects>

Two: "HA! SEE!?"

One: "... FINE. But I've got my eyes on you. Don't you be doing any silly stuff."

<if the Storm Knight transforms>

One: "THERE! All better! See? Aren't you glad that Core Earther isn't messing things up anymore?"

Two: "What Core Earther?"

;)

Because Ords don't have that attempt, the Everlaw of One is content to just disconnect the Ord. No need to spend more energy than it needs to. Though 1 out of 20 times it accidentally is a bit too enthusiastic in cutting the Ord off. :-)

The Meta-law of One is that the Everlaw of One is LAZY.


Their actual items etc will transform when they do and it is at that point they are stripped of their (trace) possibilities. That said, as they are in the LL their items will also be subject to natural transformation, same as any item left unattended. So a disconnected ord with an ak47 in his hand tramping through the LL may find that it transforms into a spear even though his clothes remain modern.


Correct. Though even his clothes will transform eventually too...and it won't take very long. At most 1 day in a Pure Zone, 1 week in a Dominant Zone.
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Atama » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:32 pm

Gargoyle wrote:Swords are similar to the bats/clubs. If the stats are the same I'd treat the machete saber and short sword as all Tech 8, but they're not. A short sword has +2 damage bonus and is Tech 8, fine. A saber and a katana has +3 damage bonus and are pretty much identical. So my house rule is they both should be a Tech axiom of 12. The saber gains no game mechanic advantage from being Tech 16, so I dislike that's how it is. It's even more expensive. They function all the same (and please don't point out to me how they are different in real life, I train with swords every day, I know...I'm talking about the basics of it and in the game..you're still cutting and poking people!), and so it just feels wrong that you can disconnect using a saber in Aysle but not a katana. Some people probably like that distinction, I don't.

Now I don't go through the equipment list and change it, I'm far too lazy for that. I go with the RAW values in play, so sabers at my table are still Tech 16. It's not a big deal IMO. But if there is a weapon not on the list, I don't inflate the tech level because of what you might see on a "How It's Made" video, I only make it higher if that helps its game mechanics somehow. It's still a house rule I suppose, but it's not one I have to use a lot.

That’s fair, we all have house rules and yours has valid logic behind it. As long as it’s clear that it’s a house rule. I see all kinds of interesting house rules on the boards. :)
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby ShirtlessOBrien » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:42 pm

TorgHacker wrote:They don't. Just to be clear. If someone wants to argue that they still provide a 'benefit' then pull out a water pistol and shoot them a few times. :-)


Everlaw of Two: "Here's Possibility energy! Do that magic!"

Everlaw of One: "Do do do ... wait....none of that!" <snip>

Everlaw of Modesty: "Everlaw of One, we talked about this. I don't care if her underwear are nylon and hence a contradiction, leave them alone. Sicko".

Everlaw of One: "I'm a trans-universal cosmic law! I don't care who sees her bits, I have no sexuality, I just want to make all contradictions see-through and her brassiere is a contradiction!"

Everlaw of Modesty: "We are NOT that sort of game. Put them back."

World Laws of the Living Land: "I see someone has played cosm cards. All your clothes fall off and things are getting steamy in here".

Everlaw of Modesty: "Maybe we are that sort of game."

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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Savioronedge » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:44 pm

Maybe say, "no game mechanic benefit."

There is (at this time) no mechanical benefit to wearing undergarments. Unless you bought bullet proof clothes and defined them as underwear, in which case they are hiding behind your outerwear and no one will see them phasing in and out, nor what they are/were hiding.

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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Spatula » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:56 pm

Ords don't really get a better deal out of it - they may still have the contradictory equipment in a non-phasing state, but they can no longer even attempt to cause a contradiction (mind you, I dunno how that would interact with "passive" contradictions like armor). Using a rifle as a club isn't really any better than picking up a big stick and doing the same.

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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Sword of Spirit » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:05 am

TorgHacker wrote:Here's the thing. The only thing we _really_ care about is "You don't get the benefit of items contradictory to the reality you're in if you're disconnected".

And just having the thing not work if it has some sort of machine-like ability is really simple.

But the problem always was, "How do we explain how armor 'stops' working. Or swords? Essentially anything that was essentially a static object? We pretty much realized that NO explaination was going to be good...certainly not for everyone. Because it's nonsensical.

We had lengthy discussions on this. It wasn't a spur-of the moment idea. We did seriously think about having simple things just break, but that was a bit too permanent for what really was intended to be temporary. We thought about just having them 'not work' but then there would inevitably be those people who said, "But that doesn't make any sense? Why do they 'not work'? Why do some objects just work less well, and others stop working at all?

I know, because I was that person. :-)

Ultimately we decided on the phasing _because_ it was the fallback position when nothing simpler occurred to the designers. There just is a disagreement between us and you about which is simpler. :-)

It really was, in our opinion (and this was unanimous) the best of a bunch of poor options.

But (I haven't said this in awhile) your game has much different requirements than our product. We have to figure out a way to have this best presented to the masses...you just have to worry about yourself and your players.

But it's all just flavor text anyways. If you and your players prefer the "it just doesn't work" then go for it. We won't care. The only thing we really 'care' about (and even then...if you want to ignore this rule, go ahead!) is that people don't get benefits for contradictory stuff. How that happens is completely up to you.

We just provided an explanation that we thought most people would accept easiest.


Yep, totally understand from a design perspective. It might be easy for me to say "Nothing functions in ways the axioms don't allow. An object that would function above the axioms, instead basically functions like a hunk of whatever basic substance it is made out of (metal/stone/etc). This means many weapons (such as rifles) can only be used as improvised clubs. If an item should function just by being there, the object loses solidity or it phases out (in whole or in part) in whatever minimal way is necessary to prevent it from functioning. For example, armor looks the same, but it doesn't provide any protection--spears just pierce right through it like a hot knife through butter," but maybe not for a majority of the fanbase.

One thing to be aware of though is that outside of that one statement (and picture) in the rulebook I haven't seen any examples of phasing stuff, even for reality-rated characters. Instead, it's all been the "it's there, it just doesn't work" angle. The crazed stormer in the LL Day One didn't have his guns phase when he disconnected. In the novella with Aidan McCallister, no phasing when he disconnected either. So I guess the issue I want to point to is that everything basically says "stuff is there but it doesn't work right" except the one statement in the core rulebook, so maybe it's not the most efficient to try to make that the definitive statement, when nothing else in the whole game agrees with it, lol. (Even though I know that you guys had that concept planned as how it was supposed to be in design, and all the contradictory material is the sort of stuff that happens when there are several people working on several different parts of several different books at the same time.) Basically, I'm cool with being the only one doing it my way, but I'm a little concerned that the current state of published material actually works better to support that, and it's going against the flow to try to curb it back to the phasing mode that you almost have to hunt to find.

Anyway, I'm also tired and have probably just subjected people to my late night stream of consciousness.

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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:55 am

Spatula wrote:Ords don't really get a better deal out of it - they may still have the contradictory equipment in a non-phasing state, but they can no longer even attempt to cause a contradiction (mind you, I dunno how that would interact with "passive" contradictions like armor). Using a rifle as a club isn't really any better than picking up a big stick and doing the same.


Like I've said, thinking about this stuff too hard will make you go mad. :-)
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby Matthew Surridge » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:33 am

TorgHacker wrote:Here's the thing. The only thing we _really_ care about is "You don't get the benefit of items contradictory to the reality you're in if you're disconnected".

And just having the thing not work if it has some sort of machine-like ability is really simple.

But the problem always was, "How do we explain how armor 'stops' working. Or swords? Essentially anything that was essentially a static object? We pretty much realized that NO explaination was going to be good...certainly not for everyone. Because it's nonsensical.

We had lengthy discussions on this. It wasn't a spur-of the moment idea. We did seriously think about having simple things just break, but that was a bit too permanent for what really was intended to be temporary. We thought about just having them 'not work' but then there would inevitably be those people who said, "But that doesn't make any sense? Why do they 'not work'? Why do some objects just work less well, and others stop working at all?

I know, because I was that person. :-)

Ultimately we decided on the phasing _because_ it was the fallback position when nothing simpler occurred to the designers. There just is a disagreement between us and you about which is simpler. :-)


Weirdly, the 'phasing' is both simple and also difficult for me to get my head around. What about having unliving contradictory material flicker between realities, with the non-contradictory reality always being the effective stat for using an item? So an Ayslish knight in the Living Land disconnects, and their mail armour becomes, say, leather or hide, while their steel sword becomes bronze. And so long as they're disconnected, stats-wise they use the stuff as if it was Living Land stuff — but other Storm Knights see it as flickering between Living Land gear and Ayslish gear, indicating that it's not actually originally native to the reality. If the knight doesn't reconnect or transforms, the unliving stuff stays Living Land; otherwise it snaps back to normal.

(I mean, I figure you guys talked about this, I'm just wondering what the drawback is that's not occurring to me. Not simple enough?)
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby TorgHacker » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:35 am

Matthew Surridge wrote:
Weirdly, the 'phasing' is both simple and also difficult for me to get my head around. What about having unliving contradictory material flicker between realities, with the non-contradictory reality always being the effective stat for using an item? So an Ayslish knight in the Living Land disconnects, and their mail armour becomes, say, leather or hide, while their steel sword becomes bronze. And so long as they're disconnected, stats-wise they use the stuff as if it was Living Land stuff — but other Storm Knights see it as flickering between Living Land gear and Ayslish gear, indicating that it's not actually originally native to the reality. If the knight doesn't reconnect or transforms, the unliving stuff stays Living Land; otherwise it snaps back to normal.

(I mean, I figure you guys talked about this, I'm just wondering what the drawback is that's not occurring to me. Not simple enough?)


Basically this.

If Torg was a bit ... less granular and more general as far as weapons go, having them temporarily be 'lower tech' items, it'd work. So if say, ALL melee weapons of Tech 23 did X, and Tech 16 did X-1, and Tech 7 did X-2 damage, you could do that.

Or if ALL armor of Tech 23 was +3, and Tech 16 was +2, and Tech 7 was +1, you could do that.

But there's so much more variety in the game that would be messy. What if you're in Tech 17, or 18, or 19?

I didn't really push hard on making it that simple, but largely because there was no way we were going that simple.

But yeah, the biggest challenges were trying to suss out the 'most better' solution to:

1. When do you disconnect if you're just wearing or carrying contradictory stuff?

2. What happens to that passive stuff when you do disconnect?

It's fuzzy enough that I wouldn't say there was a 'best' solution, because YMMV. But we could say, "What, ultimately, is our goal here?" and choose the solution that emphasizes THAT.

Essentially the goal was mechanical simplicity. Hence, Surge on the Drama Deck and Schroedinger's Rifle when you're disconnected. Everything after that is rationalization after the fact.
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Re: Electric katana/longbow questions

Postby mica » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:26 am

I have tended to use the principle that the item is useless if it is is above the axiom. So a wrench held by a disconnected ord in the LL is still a nice club and uses the appropriate stats of an LL club, same as using the butt end of an AK-47. If the disconnected ord tried to use it as a wrench to loosen a nut however, it would simply keep slipping off (and at some point they would try to use it as a hammer with predictable results). Kevlar armour however is just just a quickly rotting stuffed shirt and steel armour would be as much use as tin foil, rusting and becoming brittle while providing no protection.

The argument is highly anthropomorphic in that the Ever Laws tend to require observation to go into full effect. So the LL nut described above will happily remain firmly attacked to the bolt and keep that hawser holding up the dilapidated bridge while the dinos make their crossing but may well start to immediately rust once the characters check to see if they are up to the test of driving their jeep across. Think quantum mechanics where the instability state of the contradiction is a variable based on the level of interest by the observer.


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