Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

QuarrelBlue
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby QuarrelBlue » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:04 am

I thourht it perfectly suits for transformed Viking Warrior-Priest, but I have to wait and hope that the realm Ásatrú(revived old Core Earth tradition under Aysle Reality, like Los Asangrados amd Neo-Shamanism did under Living Land Reality) have it...

Sunrunner
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby Sunrunner » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:53 am

Meh part of my problem is my group has Heavy hitters, I have a Dwarven Berserker in Dragon armor that smacks things for a base of 21 AP2 before damage dice get involved and hes generally multi attacking every round. So him getting 4 + attacks off in the time it will take me to pump out one Lighting Strike is generally really inefficient use of time for me. I spend my time Soothing his shock off to keep him standing or Cursing our enemies to make them easier to hit or less effective at hurting the party back. I also have a Tharkod Psion/Mage who does a pretty good Thor imitation as he TK slings his Impact Hammer or Electric Katana depending on his mood and what he thinks is going to be more effective, Staggering the targets or AP to push damage through armor. And since he has Whirlwind Attack and Haste is his Go to spell he is generally multi attacking to smack anything with in 50 meters of so of him. Hes clocks in at a base damage of 17 or so. So like I said I got heavy hitters that tear crap up, My job is to keep them going cause I am a priest of Wadjet. Its not to say I dont deal damage, I have Death shout and it serves me well when I need to hurt things, but I have others who have better and more consistent offense that I can support.

Sunrunner
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby Sunrunner » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:19 am

To state my point a little more concisely I think that the Torg game system allows for other character types that can be the Big Guns as it were and be much more consistent and efficient at it. Honestly if you want damage as a miracle worker I would point you towards Death Shout, Drain Life, or Scarab Swarm in the Nile or Breath Fire, Kill, Touch of Time in the Living lands though the last 2 are a little specialized for my tastes. For Core rule book Hell fire while short ranges is good, and Wither is OK because its a good spell but alot of the things you would want to use it on like Gospog are immune to it.

Bottom line because of the limitation placed on lighting strike I feel that generally the other spells I mentioned provide much more consistent and reliable damage options, and while I appreciate the Rocket Launcher option as it were spells are too limited in Torg for limited use spells to get picked unless some one is just bound and determined to take them for RP reasons.

Personally I think toning it down a little and removing the restrictions would produce a over all more picked and used spell. It has to be toned down because if you just removed the restrictions it would be OP as heck. But maybe taking it down to the Level of Lighting Bolt from the spell caster side of it would turn it into a very solid offensive miracle. That being said its moderately traditional at this point for Divine casters to not have the offensive out put of Arcane casters due to their access to healing and what not that traditionally Arcane casters cant get.

Part of my over all problem with Miracles is that you get even fewer spell CHOICES then spell casters or psions. You might end up with the same number of slots on your list but Psions and Spell casters get to pick any 3 they can qualify for while Miracles gets 2 + pre picked ward enemy. I have kinda assumed this is a trade off because miracles all go back to one skill and one stat so its much easier to pump it up as it were, where both spell casters and psion have multiple skills based on multiple stats making it much harder and more expensive to really push the limit on more then 1 or 2 schools for them.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:08 am

Kuildeous wrote:Thanks for the clarification on the location that the miracle may be invoked, Deanna. My player will be glad to hear that.

Something else that strikes me as I read the miracle: Since it targets Dodge, I rule that it is subject to the firing-into-melee limitation. But it says that there is no penalty due to range, cover, or darkness. I'm sure this is a GM call, but I think this GM will call that it avoids hitting an ally. More of an RAI rather than RAW, unless you folks state that's your intention, in which case I might have to go against the grain there. The once-per-scene blammo should feel special.


Honestly, there was likely zero consideration about how this interacted with Firing into Melee. But I have no qualms with that interpretation.
Deanna Gilbert
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Ulisses North America

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Greymarch2000
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby Greymarch2000 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:09 am

Following the rocket launcher analogy, as my group is Beta clearance they find it pretty simple to actually requisition a LAW rocket or two for most combat oriented missions. Obviously knowing a miracle is more subtle than lugging a LAW around with you and there's pros and cons both ways but that's the way my group has looked at it.

Perhaps the limitations of once per Scene and casting every round are a bit much together? I think losing the once per Scene limit could make it more palatable for some. Because really how many combats go more than 4 rounds anyway?

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TorgHacker
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:33 am

Kuildeous wrote:Thanks for the clarification on the location that the miracle may be invoked, Deanna. My player will be glad to hear that.

Something else that strikes me as I read the miracle: Since it targets Dodge, I rule that it is subject to the firing-into-melee limitation. But it says that there is no penalty due to range, cover, or darkness. I'm sure this is a GM call, but I think this GM will call that it avoids hitting an ally. More of an RAI rather than RAW, unless you folks state that's your intention, in which case I might have to go against the grain there. The once-per-scene blammo should feel special.


Honestly, there was likely zero consideration about how this interacted with Firing into Melee. But I have no qualms with that interpretation.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

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TorgHacker
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:34 am

Greymarch2000 wrote:Following the rocket launcher analogy, as my group is Beta clearance they find it pretty simple to actually requisition a LAW rocket or two for most combat oriented missions. Obviously knowing a miracle is more subtle than lugging a LAW around with you and there's pros and cons both ways but that's the way my group has looked at it.

Perhaps the limitations of once per Scene and casting every round are a bit much together? I think losing the once per Scene limit could make it more palatable for some. Because really how many combats go more than 4 rounds anyway?


That may be true, but it's not going to change at this point. This is more for future reference since we're getting more into higher powered spells and such.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

mystic101
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby mystic101 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:04 am

Put me in the column of someone who wouldn't choose it. My main character is a mage/cleric who actually qualifies for both the lightning bolt spell and the lightning miracle right now. If I ever do choose to get one or the other of them, it'd be the spell over the miracle for sure.

To me, 16 dmg every single round, for as many rounds as I want, definitely beats 20 dmg once per scene. Especially with a two-turn casting time. Those lightning spells are never going to be disrupted by a failed Concentration check, but that miracle might. And that would be pretty disappointing, to have my big once-a-scene attack fizzle out from a bad check right before I was going to use it, just because some minion happened to get a lucky Shock point in on me at just the wrong moment.

For future spell/miracle design, I'd echo the posters who suggested avoiding multi-turn casting times, except for plot-heavy spells/miracles like Earthquake. As a player, I'd prefer not to regularly lose a turn of activity doing something that I'm doing all the time (it's more okay for some kind of special occasion type of spell). It's what's kept me away from Sniper-type builds up to this point . . . it sounds like it could be fun, but I've been reluctant to give up my every other action for the Aiming. So far I've opted for builds where I can instead always be doing something to contribute, to a greater or lesser degree, every single round.

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Count Thalim
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby Count Thalim » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:10 am

For future drawbacks how about a cumulative penalty each time you cast it in a scene?
So no penalty the first time, -2 the second, -4, - 6 and so on.
The main problem is that it requires keeping track of how often you have cast a miracle/spell, but you do that for the Slayers rounds.

In general though I would be fine with the once per scene limitation and dropping the 2 turn cost for future big miracles/Spells.
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Greymarch2000
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Re: Opinions on lightning strike miracle?

Postby Greymarch2000 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:42 am

TorgHacker wrote:That may be true, but it's not going to change at this point. This is more for future reference since we're getting more into higher powered spells and such.


Oh yeah, but some kind of sacred item could be introduced that got rid of one of the limitations or something. :)
Just so long as it isn't something that takes another Perk slot.


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