Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

GeniusCodeMonkey
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 2:35 am

Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby GeniusCodeMonkey » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:22 am

I always run it as the old rule. It makes more sense to have a total min of +1.
Question everything.
Politeness costs nothing.

User avatar
Atama
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:30 am
Location: Auburn, WA

Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Atama » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:46 am

It seems obvious that the minimum +1 rule is to guarantee that no matter what, giving up your turn to defend yourself with an Active Defense will always, under every possible circumstance, ensure that you are improving your defenses. Even if it’s only by +1. Any interpretation that might lead to a situation where an Active Defense might somehow lower your defenses is incorrect, and if you adopt that interpretation you’re better off never doing it (unless perhaps you have “defense” as approved and really want a card). To sacrifice the ability to perform a real action and simultaneously risk making things worse is irrational. You’d always be better off doing something else instead.
“You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
-TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4901
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:35 pm

Okay, so here's the scoop.

Active Defense is a bit weird. It's not an action (which it was in Original Torg). It _replaces_ an action, with the ability to roll a die, and apply that bonus to any defenses that is targeted by an attack on you.

Because it's not an action, there are no Difficulty Modifiers, nor are there any modifiers for Stymied, which specifically apply to actions.

So when you are getting a bonus or penalty to a specific defense, or all defenses, it's not a number that modifies the total...it's actually modifying the defense directly.

Which is why it's "after". I'll be rewording it in the FAQ.
Deanna Gilbert
Torg Eternity designer
Ulisses North America

Istrian
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 7:18 am
Location: Cyberpapacy (Paris)

Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Istrian » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:51 pm

Thanks for the clarification.

Now I have a couple of extra questions:
  • Does this mean that no Destiny Cards with static modifiers, such as Adrenaline or Action, can be played to modify an Active Defence roll? (The cards say "skill total" but this is technically not a skill)
  • Can Possibilities/Drama/Hero cards be used to roll extra dice? (Possibility rules say "Any time a character attempts an action" but this is not an action)

User avatar
TorgHacker
Posts: 4901
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby TorgHacker » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:46 pm

Istrian wrote:Thanks for the clarification.

Now I have a couple of extra questions:
  • Does this mean that no Destiny Cards with static modifiers, such as Adrenaline or Action, can be played to modify an Active Defence roll? (The cards say "skill total" but this is technically not a skill)



Correct.

  • Can Possibilities/Drama/Hero cards be used to roll extra dice? (Possibility rules say "Any time a character attempts an action" but this is not an action)


  • Hmmm...yes.

    TBH I wish the Active Defense was worded differently.
    Deanna Gilbert
    Torg Eternity designer
    Ulisses North America

    Savioronedge
    Posts: 546
    Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:55 pm

    Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

    Postby Savioronedge » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:11 pm

    Thoughts on concerns:

    -Stymied; this is never applied to a Defense because Vulnerable is the status condition for that. If Stymied could impact a Target's Dodge, no one would go for Vuln until after V-Stymied already applied.

    -Vulnerable; applies to the attacker's roll making it easier for the target to get hit. Therefore, the Active Defense will have no direct effect on the status, though a good enough result will ballance/counteract it.

    -Passive Defense Bonus; Shields. Ok, they don't apply to interactions and the Active Defense gives me a toughness bonus, but a high probability (with my dice) of cutting my defense bonus in half for a measily +2 Armor makes "Raising my Shield" an idiotic move, while a 'Guaranteed +3 (total) to Dodge/Melee +1 to other defenses' could be a valid play.


    In movies, books, TV shows, and real life there are those who are better off not trying , those who only make themselves better targets by trying to Dodge...I recently watched a show where someone trying to actively defend against a Taunt made it more effective. This is why I previously said the potential loss of bonus could be intentional. However, this is usually an effect of a lack of skill, so I would propose the following alternative rule:

    If a character declares an active defense, wait until he is targeted. Once an atack is declared against the character, he makes a skill roll using the appropriate defense, Difficulty 10... mishap: lose all bonuses, Failure: Active Defense provides no bonus, Success: +1 all defenses, Good: +2, Outstanding: +3.

    I don't like this option. It just makes more sense to me than telling the guy with the Magic Shield +2 (+4 defense) that he could be worse off in defense because an active defense can take him down to +1.

    User avatar
    TorgHacker
    Posts: 4901
    Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:40 pm

    Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

    Postby TorgHacker » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:09 pm

    Savioronedge wrote:
    I don't like this option. It just makes more sense to me than telling the guy with the Magic Shield +2 (+4 defense) that he could be worse off in defense because an active defense can take him down to +1.


    Just for the record...if this guy had a dodge 10...and was getting shot...and rolled a 4...the DN would be 15.
    Deanna Gilbert
    Torg Eternity designer
    Ulisses North America

    User avatar
    Atama
    Posts: 1173
    Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:30 am
    Location: Auburn, WA

    Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

    Postby Atama » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:42 pm

    My understanding of Active Defense is much simpler than this discussion.

    Active Defense is not a skill roll, or an action. You roll a D20 and compare it to the table to see what bonus you get. That bonus is a minimum +1. If you roll well (a 13 or higher on a D20), then the bonus is higher.

    That bonus stacks with whatever your current defense is. If you are being shot at, and you have a Dexterity of 10, with 3 Adds in Dodge, and a shield that gives a +2 bonus, your Dodge defense is 15. If you make an Active Defense, and roll poorly (let’s say a 3) you are at the minimum +1 with a total defense of 16 to Dodge. If you rolled, say, a 17 on your die then your bonus is +4 and your Dodge defense is a whopping 19. That bonus doesn’t replace any other existing bonuses, such as a shield bonus or concealment. It stacks.

    I don’t believe you can mishap because that only occurs on a skill or attribute roll, and Active Defense is neither. You also can’t disconnect on a bad Active Defense roll because it isn’t a “normal skill test”.

    If I’m mistaken about this please let me know. I don’t see anything in the core book or FAQs that contradicts my interpretation.
    “You are a bad person, and should feel bad.”
    -TorgHacker (being tongue-in-cheek :D)

    vaminion
    Posts: 104
    Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:22 pm

    Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

    Postby vaminion » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:33 pm

    Atama wrote:My understanding of Active Defense is much simpler than this discussion.

    Active Defense is not a skill roll, or an action. You roll a D20 and compare it to the table to see what bonus you get. That bonus is a minimum +1. If you roll well (a 13 or higher on a D20), then the bonus is higher.

    That bonus stacks with whatever your current defense is. If you are being shot at, and you have a Dexterity of 10, with 3 Adds in Dodge, and a shield that gives a +2 bonus, your Dodge defense is 15. If you make an Active Defense, and roll poorly (let’s say a 3) you are at the minimum +1 with a total defense of 16 to Dodge. If you rolled, say, a 17 on your die then your bonus is +4 and your Dodge defense is a whopping 19. That bonus doesn’t replace any other existing bonuses, such as a shield bonus or concealment. It stacks.

    I don’t believe you can mishap because that only occurs on a skill or attribute roll, and Active Defense is neither. You also can’t disconnect on a bad Active Defense roll because it isn’t a “normal skill test”.

    If I’m mistaken about this please let me know. I don’t see anything in the core book or FAQs that contradicts my interpretation.


    That was my take as well.

    utsukushi
    Posts: 963
    Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:30 pm

    Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

    Postby utsukushi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:49 pm

    And that reading has the advantage of being exactly what the rules say. With an Active Defense, you just roll a bonus and add it to your defenses. Full stop.

    I don't know about Mishaps. Instinctively I just always see a 1 and think, "Whoops! Mishap!" And that includes on an Active Defense, but reading the two sections I think the rules support your suggestion that it's impossible to Mishap AD. I'm not sure there, but I lean towards Mishap still applying. Disconnection, though - if your defense involves a contradiction, I totally think you can still Disconnect.

    In both cases, we have to consider the Deflect Pulp Power, because, well, it's a thing, and there might be similar things in the future. It really is possible to build a character who will be assumed to virtually always roll Active Defense with that. If, in addition to their +3 defense and ability to clap back they are also immune to Mishaps or Disconnections despite using a Cosm-based Power, that feels suddenly a lot stronger than intended.


    Return to “Rules Questions (TORG)”

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests