Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

mica
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby mica » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:16 am

There are two issues that are being entangled.
1. Could a shield add to defence when Deflection is being used?
2. When does the everlaw notice a contradiction?
Deflection states:
While making an Active Defense, the hero gets a +2 bonus to dodge against any ranged attacks involving projectiles.

But also:
The trappings of this power could be a strong wind, bulletproof shielding, or even just luck.

When taken together this presumes that some intervening object (table, unused hi-tech shield etc) is flavour and nothing more however, the first statement when taken alone merely increases the dodge and should include a shield that is currently being physically wielded. So depending on circumstance, the shield may be either flavour text and not contribute its bonus or contribute it because it is an integral part of creating the character’s current dodge score.

If the shield is being wielded it raises the question:
Does a shield bonus stack with Deflection?

Stacking
If a character is affected by more than one enhancement or reduction that changes a skill or attribute—technology, miracles, etc.—the effects don’t stack. The target gets the strongest of the effects...

So the answer is no – either shield or the deflection grants the bonus. There is therefore no benefit from wielding a +2 or below shield especially if it can create a contradiction. +3 is useful as the person casting Deflection can still potentially deflect the incoming object back at the target but the overall bonus is +3.

Finally, back to what is arguably the most contentious question:
When does the everlaw notice a contradiction?

A contradictory shield used in melee and boosting the person’s melee defense with a non-contradictory weapon does not cause a contradiction when the wielder rolls a 1 (unless I have missed an errata) and neither does armour. In reality, anyone who has used a shield in melee (larp/re-enactment, bin lid outside the back doors of a niteclub etc) knows that they are likely to use the shield actively to jostle, bash or otherwise manoeuvre an opponent to make an opening. Anyone who has used armour will have tried to grab a weapon with a mailed fist or catch a blade on a bracer not to mention nutting somebody with a helmet. The point is that even in normal melee, shields and armour are being used actively but do not contribute the creating contradictions except when the target suffers a Surge.

As such, if a 1 does not cause contradictions despite armour and shields being contradictory in general terms, it should not count in Active Defense.

From the various Torghacker comments it is clear the designers ran into this ambiguity which is why they included Surge in the drama deck to account for all these niggling issues and keep it simple.

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Kuildeous
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Kuildeous » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:27 am

Atama wrote:
Kuildeous wrote:So if you roll a +10 on your active defense, then you’re very likely going to send those projectiles back onto the attackers. At least until the LAW rocket comes out.

Getting a +10 requires rolling 31+ on a D20. Even spending a Possibility that’s difficult. Most of the time your Active Defense bonus will be +1.


True, that’s only a 0.51% chance of rolling 31+ straight up, but that doesn’t change the fact that rolling a +10 means you probably succeeded.

And just to toss a golden apple into the forum, if you are unskilled in any of the possible defensive skills, do you reroll 20s?
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Istrian
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby Istrian » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:00 am

It's not a skill roll, so 20s are rerolled normally.

utsukushi
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby utsukushi » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:03 pm

mica wrote:Stacking
If a character is affected by more than one enhancement or reduction that changes a skill or attribute—technology, miracles, etc.—the effects don’t stack. The target gets the strongest of the effects...

So the answer is no – either shield or the deflection grants the bonus. There is therefore no benefit from wielding a +2 or below shield especially if it can create a contradiction. +3 is useful as the person casting Deflection can still potentially deflect the incoming object back at the target but the overall bonus is +3.

More amusingly, if we actually apply this logic in full, shields can't ever "stack" with Active Defense, then, because it's generating a Bonus to your defense. I see your point here, but lots of things specify that they can't combine with shields; Deflect doesn't, and seems to work sideways, being a much more specific defense than Shields give (eg., shields add to Melee Weapons and Dodge within a broad arc; Deflect only applies to Dodge and only to projectiles, but without the limited arc.) Plus, a character with Deflect and Unbreakable Shield should make sense - those just fit together conceptually.

Your case that armor and shields are always "active" even when you're attacking - I'm sorry, again I see where you're going, but in game terms that feels very forced to me. Active Defense is, tautologically, actively engaging your defenses. To argue that that's not using your shield more actively than normal is just silly. No. Atama's case that Active Defense barely counts as a roll and doesn't follow any of the normal rules has some real meat to it, but I just don't see a case for claiming that Active Defense isn't actively defending.

Though Kuildeous's question brings up a sideline to that - if it's not an Action type roll, to the point that Mishaps and even Disconnection don't apply, why would you ever get to reroll anything on it? That rule is under Attribute and Skill Tests, in the same section that goes on to explain Mishaps. If Active Defense is none of that...

kuildeous wrote:And just to toss a golden apple into the forum, if you are unskilled in any of the possible defensive skills, do you reroll 20s?

Yes. *Crunch* How did you know discord was my favorite kind of apple? Simultaneously crisp and juicy. Mmm.

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TorgHacker
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby TorgHacker » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:17 pm

Okay, to deal with some...uh..."active" questions...

Sorry.

#notsorry

Ahem.

1. Deflect does not stack with the Shield bonus.

2. Rolling a 1 (or 1-4) on an Active Defense roll does not constitute a contradiction...UNLESS you are getting the benefit of something that actually impacts that active defense roll. Just the roll, not whatever becomes out of it. For instance, if a Perk makes your Active Defense roll Favored, and that Perk is contradictory, then it counts.
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utsukushi
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Re: Active Defense FAQ entry clarification question

Postby utsukushi » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:20 pm

Wait, so I'm wrong again? On both points??

Give me a moment while I try to find my "surprised" face. I'm sure it's around here somewhere. :lol:


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